Jill Abramson on the Media's Coverage of Impeachment
Jill Abramson is the former Executive Editor of The New York Times and the author of Merchants of Truth: The Business of News and the Fight for Facts. She dissects the media, bubbles and the truth with impeachment front and center. Christy Harvey shares a list of who's been naughty or nice and the 'Back Page' focus is on college football.
TRANSCRIPT
Al Hunt: Welcome to 2020 politics war room. With James Carville, and I'm Albert Hunt. We have another special guest this week, Jill Abramson, former executive editor of the New York Times, author of a great book on the contemporary American media. As always we have Christy Harvey in the back page. I hope everyone will subscribe, rate and review.
Al Hunt: And we'll start with Jill, who was the [00:00:30] only woman, the executive editor of the New York Times, a Harvard professor, and wrote Merchants of Truth which is really an incredibly import book on the modern media. [inaudible 00:00:42]So Jill it's great to have you here. And let me start off by asking you this, the Washington Post, Margret Sullivan, who may have worked for you once-
Jill Abramson: She did. I selected her as public editor of the New York Times.
Al Hunt: [inaudible 00:00:56]Well, she's doing a great job at the Post, but she criticized the media coverage of [00:01:00] the impeachment this week, as saying it was too much false equivalency, it ought to be more focused, more pointed ,and factually exposing lies and truth, that this sense of, "On the one hand, and on the other hand", has really been a disservice. Do you agree with her?
Jill Abramson: I usually agree with her on almost everything, but in this case I think the coverage has been quite good. And I thought her major point is she wanted it all boiled down better, so that [00:01:30] persuadable people could understand it and get real facts. I don't see much false equivalency here. I see close coverage of the witnesses, and I think most people who are paying attention get it. They understand what happened. And you some of... I thought that the constitutional lawyers [00:02:00] were helpful in terms of framing whether what happened is serious enough to be not only a violation of the constitution, but grounds to remove an elected president.
Al Hunt: [inaudible 00:02:15]Well, I think you're right. And I think Margaret's frustration is that if you follow closely and you look at it... I mean, the case is really quite compelling. And yet the public opinion hasn't changed. I don't think that's a reflection [00:02:30] of media coverage. I think that's a reflection of a polarized electorate, polarized public.
Jill Abramson: Right. And she is critical of reporters for reflexively using the word partisan, hiding behind it. I don't really agree with that either, because I mean, Washington is at a partisan stand still. And if all of the Republicans in the senate stay behind [00:03:00] the president, it will be a straight up partisan vote, to acquit him in the senate.
James Carville: [inaudible 00:03:07] Yeah. But back in the day when I campaigns and you guys were in journalism and stuff, we actually thought that. But I think there was some evidence that the big story came, it had some effect on the dynamic and some effect on the campaign. If the campaign had something particularly effective that it said it could start something, and people would go.
James Carville: Now [00:03:30] it seems to me it doesn't matter what they write, how they write it, how much truth is in it, what the facts are. Every time I go to FiveThirtyEight, it's 43, 41.6 to 53.5. And we have all this new news and all this information has come into the system. And I pretty sympathetic that a lot of it, I think has been well reported. I don't think [00:04:00] that the media is ignoring this in any way, shape or form. It just looks like we're all talking to each other and no one is listening. And is this going to, is it continuing an ongoing byproduct of the current partisanship, or is this going to change where people pay attention and be influenced by some of these events?
Jill Abramson: [inaudible 00:04:28] It's a byproduct, if I can [00:04:30] jump in, of technology, also of how people get their news. And the biggest way people get their news is from their Facebook feeds. And the almighty algorithm figures out down to where you live, how old you are, how frequently you vote, exactly your political views and what you like most of all. And it feeds you more and more [00:05:00] of what you like. And so, many people are only exposed to information that is like-minded with themselves.
Al Hunt: [inaudible 00:05:10] Same with watching television. We watch MSNBC if you're on the left at night, and you watch Fox if you're on the right.
Jill Abramson: Right. A smart guy named Eli Pariser called this the filter bubble and that's what it is. We're all in our own filter bubbles and rarely [00:05:30] exposed to information that comes from sources that we don't agree with.
James Carville: [inaudible 00:05:36]So this is something I've noticed on my side of the equation. On the campaign side, and this was true in the Kentucky governor's races. I was very involved in, as I was with Louisiana governor's race. And this is an increase. They don't Bevin and Rispone, they don't campaign. They bring Trump in for rallies, and they go to fundraisers. [00:06:00] But the way that a statewide... Brant races in Kentucky, and you'd go to the Pikeville Kiwanis club. And there were certain... You went to fancy farm and there were certain things that you did in Kentucky that are the same as true in Louisiana. They don't do events anymore. They just do Trump and then they put Trump on TV. Rispone didn't even talk about what he would do as governor. He just said he would govern like Donald Trump.
Al Hunt: [inaudible 00:06:30] Well [00:06:30] let's take that to the presidential level, and Jill, weigh in. You said you thought the impeachment coverage has been pretty good. How about the coverage, and we're going to get back to impeachment. We're not through with it, but how about the coverage of the national campaign?
Jill Abramson: Yeah, I think that that's been pretty good too. We'll have to wait to see whether places like the New York Times fulfill their promise to really [00:07:00] get out in the country and do the kind of shoe leather reporting and talking to people, if they'll talk to a reporter nowadays, to really get at how the country is feeling. Because the Times admitted after the 2016 election in a letter that Dean Baquet and Arthur Sulzberger Jr. both signed. I think it's rare when journalists concede that [00:07:30] they've screwed up, but they owned up to not getting the wave of anger that was out in the country, particularly in red America.
Jill Abramson: I've seen glimmers of hope that the Times and other news organizations are doing that. I think if you read either the Times or the Washington Post where Dan Ball sets a [00:08:00] great example of the kind of reporting that we need more of: going to places, talking to real people, and really having a accurate pulse of the nation. I think that they're serving their readers well.
James Carville: [inaudible 00:08:21]Yeah, I can take a little bit issue here. I think that the press was mischaracterized, the Democratic Party, and I think [00:08:30] they... And the candidates followed it. So I'm not [inaudible 00:08:34] here. How dominant the identity politics were on the left wing of the Democratic Party? One of the stories that no one has got. I go to FiveThirtyEight and I look at the average of polls over time among the Democrats, and what is clearly happened is that Warren Sanders share has dropped precipitously.
James Carville: So I'm talking to people out of doing focus [00:09:00] groups. I can learn more, in my opinion, talking to one political consultant who has sat in three focus groups than I can just knocking on random doors. And everybody is saying the same thing. These Democrats are just pragmatic to the extreme and they discuss in great strategic detail about how Warren's medicare for all is not. I think impression that was left about the Democratic [00:09:30] party is not being bared out so far at the polling I've seen this far in the campaign.
James Carville: I mean Sanders and Warren had a combined New Hampshire number in one of the polls of 24. And I think that the influence of the left, there's some chance that that's been exaggerated.[inaudible 00:09:51]
Jill Abramson: It's possible.
Al Hunt: [inaudible 00:09:55]How about investigative reporting?
Jill Abramson: Well we're talking right [00:10:00] after the Washington Post has published this magnificent investigative report based on documents of interviews done with top officials involved in the war in Afghanistan admitting that they knew it was a total disaster and fiasco. But obviously both president George W. Bush [00:10:30] and president Obama and their administrations were lying to the country about the progress of the war.
James Carville: If they don't win the Pulitzer prize for that, then Joe Burrow is not going Heisman trophy.
Al Hunt: Well I think it's great reporting, and it's special. And it really is. We've said earlier, Jill, we at one point we were just chatting. It is like the Pentagon papers. I mean, there are differences, but it's very, very much like the Pentagon papers. [00:11:00] But I think there's been good investigative reporting throughout. I think a lot of the Russian stuff involved really good investigative reporting. And it wasn't just... I mean, Bob Muller did not exculpate. Let's not forget it was the Washington Post, I believe, that broke the fact that there was a whistle blower. We don't know that would have come out otherwise.
James Carville: I am not. The only place I criticize the press, to be clear, is I think that they over played the left [00:11:30] in identity politics in the Democratic Party. I think they've done a good job on Russia. I think the facts are very clear. The problem is they write these stories and 80% of the Republicans think the Ukrainians did it. It has to be frustrating to be a journalist, to work as hard as some of these people work in journalism, to work on these stories, to print them, and [00:12:00] the same 57% believe you, and the same 43% don't believe you. It's a dangerous way to have a country. I hope this does not continue, but there certain people in this country just impervious to facts. I can't blame... I don't know if journalism is at fault for that.
Jill Abramson: No, I don't think it's at fault for that. But the most frightening thing of all is there isn't even agreement on what facts are anymore. And I think back to Margaret's column [00:12:30] for a second, that it's not really the job of journalists to, at least for news reporters to persuade the public. I mean, the duty is to inform the public, and so it is frustrating. I know that from having been managing an executive editor of the Times. I mean, this was happening back then too. But [00:13:00] it still feels rewarding when you unveil something like the Afghanistan papers. It's a record. It's, not to be corny, but the first draft of history and that still has value. It may not be believed by a lot of people who wouldn't believe anything that the Washington Post [00:13:30] printed. But that's still not really the burden of a free press. But as I said, it's to inform, not really to persuade.
James Carville: Right.
Al Hunt: Well, I agree but let's just take a couple of examples in this current scandal, there were dueling narratives at that impeachment committee hearing this week. Republicans saying, "We know Ukraine really did [00:14:00] it." And the Democrats saying, "That's utter nonsense. The Russians did it." Now I'm sorry, that's not on the one hand, on the other hand. The Ukraine story is totally bogus. And so, same thing with Joe Biden, I think it's outrageous that his son worked for that energy company, but Joe Biden not only didn't do anything wrong, he did everything right. And yet, I think the narrative gets kind of on the one hand, on the other hand, not with the Times and Post so much, but a little bit with the networks.
Jill Abramson: [00:14:30] I guess. I know I don't agree that Joe Biden did everything right, because at the point he knew his son was lobbying for effectively a state gas company that had a little bit of a shady reputation. I'm just thinking, if I were him I would have read the Riot Act to my kid and said, "Don't do this. [00:15:00] It could explode in my face. Even if we stick to the letter of the law, it still carries an appearance of conflict of interest when I'm the vice president and you're lobbying really for a foreign government."
Al Hunt: Well, I agree with you actually on that. I was saying he did everything right as far as getting that corrupt prosecutor fired that that was. But he never should have let his son get in that [00:15:30] position and stay in that position. I agree on that.
James Carville: Yeah. It was poor judgment, but there was no... To be fair and it's been reported, I don't know if it matters, there's no action that Biden took that anybody has ever been able to find that favored his son at all. And in fact, all of the evidence is, is he tried to get an honest prosecutor and honest enforcement over this. And I think when I say that, that is pretty clearly been reported to the American people, but [00:16:00] they believe it or not.
James Carville: I guess I want to go back to my original point. When most people start their careers, when you were young, when y'all were working together at the Wall Street Journal, you were young. You had a passion for getting good stories. But part of the lure of the profession was, is that you would make a difference. That you'd expose these stories and you would work hard, and public opinion would move.
James Carville: It seems to me that the journalist today are working as hard as ever, a lot of them. There's [00:16:30] fewer and it's more concentrated at the Post than the Times, and maybe, without this coming up you, well the Journal's up for sure. But McClatchy was big, and USA Today had a lot of clout. People are just... The Enquirer was influential. The LA times... It's just different, and it feels like they write these stories and nothing happens. And that's got to be frustrating to... [00:17:00] I would think it's frustrating to journalists, particularly younger ones.
Jill Abramson: Yeah. No doubt it is frustrating, but those frustrations have existed since I worked for Al at the Wall Street Journal covering money and politics and doing all kinds of investigations of obvious conflict of interest, secret donations being [00:17:30] made to lawmakers by people who were seeking favors, just like the narrative and the Ukraine story.
Jill Abramson: In the back of my mind, I always felt that I hope that those stories would lead to some kind of campaign finance reform, and instead we got this Citizens United decision. So, but that doesn't mean... I felt so frustrated [00:18:00] that those stories were meaningless or without any impact. Thus it has always been so. What's different now, and so frightening I think, is this failure to be able to come to an agreement on even what the basic facts are.
James Carville: Yeah. I guess I don't want to stay just drill down, but I think [00:18:30] the three of us know pretty much what the basic facts are. And I don't think we have much doubt in our mind about what they are.
Jill Abramson: Right. But, but as Al pointed out, the Republicans are exploiting the fact that they can create a completely false narrative with made up facts and their constituency is going to believe them.
Al Hunt: Well, you're right. Let me give you one example. I watched the whole time when Steve Caster, [00:19:00] the lawyer for Jim Jordan in the Republican's was testifying. This is the lawyers. This is not a politician who supposedly, who was going to play games with that because of worried about what house can play at home. He was a lawyer. I'm sure he's a conservative lawyer, but among other things, he went and he said that Nancy Pelosi had said that it would be dangerous to let voters decide Donald Trump's fate.
Al Hunt: Jill, that is one. It's simple to describe that statement. It's a lie. It's an absolute lie. [00:19:30] He also went on to say that these Democrats don't know how to run investigations, suggesting that we as Republicans did this. This is Trey Gowdy, Jason [Shavids 00:19:39], it's Devin Nunez, sure. But that was just ignored. This was a council. This was not a small guy, but it's kind of future shock. There's so much that goes on. This guy should just be signaled out for being a what he was. He's a guy who just lied in a couple of things yesterday, but it doesn't much matter.
James Carville: No, it doesn't.
Jill Abramson: [00:20:00] Sadly, I agree.
Al Hunt: Wow. We're really in an uproar.
James Carville: [crosstalk 00:20:05] We had a great at the [crosstalk 00:20:08].
Al Hunt: Wow.
James Carville: It's amazing though. And I just have to believe that it's going to come back in. I don't know why. I'm an older guy that says, "Oh, this can't continue, can it?" Maybe it will.
Al Hunt: Well, let me give you one ray of optimism and that is read Merchants of Truth. Because [00:20:30] basically what I think when you read that, I think when Jill started doing that book, I don't know what your mindset was, but the Washington Post and New York Times were struggling. And it's not all gravy train right now, but they have adapted. They have adjusted. They are still great newspapers.
Al Hunt: The Los Angeles Times really went downhill. And they're only part way back, but they are coming back. Now a lot of local news is suffering, and that's really important. And that's going to hurt a lot of communities. [00:21:00] But some of the really good news organizations, Jill, you are the expert on this, I think there's a lot of encouraging news.
Jill Abramson: I think the work being done is better than it ever has been as a whole. And I don't think... I mean, we're talking mostly about the impeachment coverage, but when you look at coverage of things like Harvey Weinstein and setting off the Me Too movement. That has changed workplace [00:21:30] behavior, not so that there's no sexual misconduct, but some journalism has a tremendous impact.
James Carville: That is really changed. Yes.
Al Hunt: Yeah. Well, as I say, I think what everybody who's listening ought to do is go out and buy a copy of Merchant's of Truth.
Jill Abramson: Thanks. They should really buy Michiko Kakutani's the Death of Truth. I feel her.
Al Hunt: No, I want them to read your book first.
Jill Abramson: Oh, thanks.
Al Hunt: James. You want [00:22:00] to add anything?
James Carville: No, I mean it's so amazing that the three of us have a conversation. It strikes me that, we all agree. I mean, it's not a... I look for reasons when you do a show like this. Of course you look for reasons because it's more provocative if you disagree with someone. But it's just hard to disagree on any of this because the facts are so obvious, and I keep wondering, "Am I missing something?" And I've wondered [00:22:30] and wondered about it, but I don't know what I'm missing. The facts are sitting there right in front of me.
Al Hunt: Well James that's a problem we have when we get someone on is smarter than we are. We're always going to agree with them.
James Carville: I don't think you even got to be very smart to see what the facts are here. I think it can be pretty stupid and see them.
Al Hunt: Anyway. Listen this is been fun. It's been edifying.
James Carville: You bet Jill.
Al Hunt: And Jill Abramson has a more important assignment right now than talking to us. She got to go pick up her grandchild.
James Carville: All right.
Al Hunt: [00:23:00] So Jill, as always, I love you, and thank you for being with us.
James Carville: Thank you so much. [inaudible 00:23:04] great.
Jill Abramson: It's been a ton of fun.
Al Hunt: And now James, for what is a highlight every week, the inimitable Christie Harvey.
Christy Harvey: Hey fellas, how are you this week?
Al Hunt: Oh, if we hear from you we're good.
Christy Harvey: I figure we're just a little bit away from Christmas. So instead of some numbers this week, I thought we could [00:23:30] compile... Help Santa out and compile a bit of a naughty/nice list for him. So I have the start of my list, somebody I think was very naughty, and someone I think was very nice.
Christy Harvey: And on my naughty list is a guy named Robert Marbut. Mr. Marbut was just tapped to head our federal council on homelessness by Donald Trump, and his previous claim to fame is, "This is the right wing consultant who travels around the country, and advises mayors that in order to solve their homelessness problems, [00:24:00] they should outlaw feeding homeless people and stop charities, churches and others from offering food to people who live on the streets."
Al Hunt: You're making this up.
Christy Harvey: I'm not making this up. And this especially made my blood boil because over the course of a year, 2.5 million children in this country are homeless at some point. So, the fact that this guy is now in charge of those kids makes me very, very angry. Anybody on your naughty list?
James Carville: [00:24:30] My naughty list, but I have not... I wanted to do numbers. I want to throw [crosstalk 00:24:35] numbers out.
Al Hunt: You can do both.
James Carville: 10 to 15. What does that mean to you?
Christy Harvey: 10 to 15? Years in jail for something.
James Carville: No, that's what Trump said, that how many times you had to flush the toilet, that you can't... All right. I'm serious. I'm serious. He was doing some kind of change in the regulations. He said, "Now you go to the bathroom you got to flush the toilet 10 [00:25:00] to 15 times."
James Carville: Now, everything he does is a lie. This is a common experience that most people have undergone quite frequently in their life. And it strikes me, at least in my instance, is being totally wrong. But at any rate, 10 to 15 is the two numbers that I was [inaudible 00:25:23].
Christy Harvey: James, does he need a doctor? I'm worried about his gastro-intestinal system.
Al Hunt: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. [00:25:30] He needs a doctor.
James Carville: I think he's just lying. I don't think it's that what it is. He just decided to say something.
Christy Harvey: Oh, man.
James Carville: The other thing I noticed that Albert really appreciate. One of the Tea Party Hall of Famers is retiring. Ted Yoho.
Al Hunt: Oh, my God. Oh, Yoho, we hardly knew you.
James Carville: Ted claimed that the second amendment gave you a right to have a nuclear weapon. [00:26:00] I'll be weird. They're dropping like flies, man. These retirements are killing me. We're going to miss Ted. We're going to miss flushing a toilet 15 times every time we'd go to the loo here.
Al Hunt: James, if you added the IQ of Ted Yoho and Louis [Gomartch 00:26:18], you think you'd get room temperature?
James Carville: Yeah. Yoho is a veterinarian. Some of these guys are... I think they'd take dumb pills. He's got to be one of them.
Christy Harvey: So, are we putting [00:26:30] him on the nice?
James Carville: I don't know.
Christy Harvey: We can put them on the nice list for deciding to finally retire.
James Carville: [Cuddle 00:26:35], I like having him around. I don't think Democrats are plus nine districts. So the Democrats can't win. If you're going to have one, have a buffoon. And I mean, he is a real, real buffoon. He's an entertaining guy. Its like we're losing him here.
Al Hunt: Okay, Christie, I have a naughty candidate.
Christy Harvey: Okay.
Al Hunt: It's me. And I'll tell you why. Months ago I wrote... Actually the first part of this year, the impeachment [00:27:00] process was inevitable and everybody said it's going to be partisan. I said, "Yeah, probably would be." But there are a few Republicans who might rise above petty politics, if there's a case there. And I specifically mentioned Georgia rep, Doug Collins, who's very conservative, a homophobe, but he's a former military chaplain with a reputation for integrity. Oh, how wrong, how naughty I was, Christie.
Christy Harvey: Oh, Albert.
Al Hunt: The ranking Republican on the judiciary committee cast aside all principles and engaged in cheap petty politics, [00:27:30] cavalierly dismissing any of the serious charges against Trump and focusing on the democratic council or why calls, why there were calls released about the nefarious Congressman Devin Nunez number. He's considering running for a senate seat even though the governor appointed someone else. So, he's going all in for Trump, and that he's put pandering well ahead of any principles. And I apologize for being naughty and saying that Doug [00:28:00] Collins might be a patriot.
James Carville: I got a naughty. Just someone text [crosstalk 00:28:04].
Christy Harvey: Oh, you got one?
James Carville: Oh yes, I got a naughty. Matt Bevin in a move that's... I'm reading from the Louisville Courier Journal. In a move that should surprise absolutely no one, former governor Matthew Griswold Bevin, who never lived in a governor's mansion, waited until the last minute to turn the stately old building over to his successor. New governor Andrew Boucher wasn't given access to the mansion until 10:00 PM Monday, giving him and his staff just two hours to prepare for his official private [00:28:30] swearing-in at midnight, and a reception before hitting the sack in advance of a long day of festivities. Paul Patton said when he was sworn in 1995, Brereton Jones moved out of the governors mansions the weekend before and turned the building over him two days before the oath of office. Now there's the classic guy. He wasn't even living in a mansion and wouldn't let his successor in until the very last minute. That's something beyond naughty. That's classless.
Christy Harvey: That really is. All right. I feel like we've got a good list of cool recipients for Santa. I do have [00:29:00] one nice one though. For the nice side of the naughty/nice list and that's Stephen Strasburg who just signed a 245 million deal for seven years with the Washington Nationals to stay on as pitcher, and he is going to defer 80 million of that to 2028 in order to try and make the salary stuff work to keep third baseman Anthony Rendon. So Hunt, I start with you. Does this mean we get to keep Rendon?
Al Hunt: Oh my God, I hope so.
Christy Harvey: Right?
Al Hunt: I am ecstatic [00:29:30] with the Strasburg signing. He's one of the three best pitchers in baseball without question now. He's actually... I idolize Max Scherzer. When it came to the end of the year of Strasburg is even better than Scherzer. He's right up there with Collin [Degram 00:29:44]. It's so great that we resigned him, and deferring that income I think is important. It's a very... It enables us to sign Rendon. They ought to do it. I hope Anthony wants to come back. If we have Strasburg and Rendon, we can make the other pieces fit. This was [00:30:00] the greatest season ever, and this is just a great December move.
James Carville: It is. I have one thing to add. I want to give a nice, a big nice. I mean a really big nice to the Washington Post. This Afghanistan papers that they-
Al Hunt: Oh, boy.
James Carville: ...took three years to get. What sort of concerns me is this is, at least as far as I can discern, not much of a topic of conversation. And if the quotes in there, by name, [00:30:30] where just breathtaking. That general Luke, he is a highly regarded person. And Rumsfeld just out and out admitting it. I mean, Obama does not look good in this at all either. I got to tell you, no one does. And we're going to have to figure a way that this country can come to a conclusion. We just haven't won a war.
James Carville: You'd think after Vietnam and after the Pentagon papers and after everything [00:31:00] else, that we would have learned something. And the answer is obviously we've learned nothing. And when people distrust, sometimes people have just massive distrust of government or what they say. And we go, "Oh no, no." And you see something like this, it really shakes your faith. It literally shakes your faith.
Christy Harvey: I think the one thing we've learned is the power of the press.
Al Hunt: I could not agree more. This is a sequel to the Pentagon papers. It's the same genre. [00:31:30] The Post did a... They were patient. They got documents. It's a fabulous... I've read two parts of the series. It's fabulous. There's all kinds of lessons there. The government lied to us. Obama looks awful. Bush looks awful. I mean, what was the reason for starting this war? We went in Afghanistan because that's where-
James Carville: The Northern alliance.
Al Hunt: Well, and Osama bin Laden was there and we were going to get him, and then a year later they brought it up with George W. Bush who said, "No, I don't want to talk to the general. I'm more focused on Iraq." [00:32:00] The overarching lesson, which was the lesson of Vietnam, which is the lesson of Afghanistan, which is the lesson of Iraq is if you're going to go in to some place, you better have a plan in the beginning of how to get out. And we have not, and we have paid a huge price.
Al Hunt: I get into an argument with friends of mine like John Nagel who is a great guy, was Petraeus's counterinsurgency. I said, "It was a mistake to go in, but then Obama made a mistake when he pulled out in 2010, even though the Iraqis didn't want us." If it was a mistake to go in, why [00:32:30] the heck do you double down and compound that mistake years later?
Al Hunt: And one final point, James, I will give the one I really will give credit to is George H.W Bush and Jim Baker, who in 1991 fought a war the way it was supposed to be fought. There was a justification. The Saddam Hussein had invaded another country, was threatening others. They went in there with a massive force. They enlisted, analyzed and then they got out.
James Carville: You know why I think [00:33:00] this is worse than the Pentagon, the Vietnam stuff? Because we'd already gone through it. I mean, somebody wouldn't have started. We don't train our officers at West Point or Annapolis. They don't teach them history where someone didn't say, "Look, we're to going in here. We don't have an exit plan." We did this in Vietnam. It worked terribly. I mean, the body of historical knowledge within the military chain of command [00:33:30] in 2001 should have been profound, deep. I mean like Craig Semans, our friend teaches at the Naval Academy. God knows how many expert historians there are at West Point. How do we educate people? How did we get to a point yet after the utterly sickening, gut wrenching mega disaster of Vietnam did we just do the same thing again?
Al Hunt: Well, yeah, and I think some celebrated American [00:34:00] generals like David Petraeus and Stanley McChrystal better do some explaining.
James Carville: Anthony [Desayavnitch 00:34:08], he said something really smart. He says, "A private that loses his rifle is in more trouble than a general that loses a war."
Al Hunt: That's true. Yeah.
James Carville: So whose career has gone to hell in a hand basket over this? If a private loses a rifle, man, they court martial you. They'd do anything. Who is going to stand up and say, "God [00:34:30] almighty. We really blew this." I mean, General Luke was just brutally frank, but I don't think he'd... My sense is he didn't know he was being heard. He was frank internally, but somebody... We've got to have people that tell us about this. This war's been going on since 2001. We're now 2019. That's unbelievable.
Al Hunt: 18 years.
James Carville: And a disaster that they knew was a disaster.
Al Hunt: And they knew it very early on too.
James Carville: They did. Ramseld knew it. They [00:35:00] all knew it.
Al Hunt: That's what's so horrifying about this.
James Carville: It is.
Al Hunt: Christie, you want to say something? But before we go, you want to say something about the press?
Christy Harvey: Yeah. I think in this day and age when we see so many local newsrooms close and so many newspapers go under or shrink their staffs, this is just a really powerful reminder of the power that the press has to bring these things to light. And pieces like this are just absolutely must read, just both for the information they contain and also for reminding us the power of good journalism.
Al Hunt: Also reminds us you're great [00:35:30] even without numbers, but you can come back with numbers next week. Thank you, Christie Harvey.
James Carville: Absolutely
Christy Harvey: All right. I'll add you guys to my nice list too. How's that?
James Carville: Oh wow. Oh wow. You're a panderer.
Christy Harvey: Bye.
Al Hunt: James, you may be focusing on hotspots in the Riviera or what offers you want to see over the holiday season, [00:36:00] but there is something called a college football playoffs. And their teams like Oklahoma, Ohio State, the defending champion Clemson Tigers and the Louisiana State University. Are you following this at all?
James Carville: Oh my God. It's like... I don't know. Never had... It's like out of body experience. First of all, where my family is, we're driving to Atlanta to go to the game. Fam is going to take a road trip. All right. Joe Barra might've had the best football [00:36:30] season of any college football play in history. When you think of-
Al Hunt: Your talking about the LSU quarterback?
James Carville: Yeah. Joe Barra's the quarterback at LSU. If you think about what he did, it's staggering. If you think about the people that he did it against, it's mind boggling. So, they'd say Georgia has the fourth best defense in the country. Of course they have the best defense in the country ecause they play... I guarantee you the teams one, two, three didn't play anybody. Joe Barra just picked them. They were considered to have [00:37:00] the finest fast events in the country. They're like didn't even exist. And he's done this. LSU is the first thing since 1936 to play five teams that were ranked in the top 10 at the time they played them.
James Carville: So, when you stop and you see the season that Joe Barra has had, you go, "Wow". And well, look at the season that Steve Young had at BYU. I don't know, Jim [Plocket 00:37:26] had at Stanford. They weren't planning anybody compared to who Joe Barra [00:37:30] was playing. I mean-
Al Hunt: Okay, let's talk about the teams. I mean, I think LSU is the favorite followed by Clemson and Ohio State, Oklahoma, really. [crosstalk 00:37:41] going to win.
James Carville: [crosstalk 00:37:41] Clemson and Ohio State. I'd put them [inaudible 00:37:43].
Al Hunt: But let me just bring up Clemson, because I think if you look at it, Clemson didn't really play by anybody. The ACC is really a weak conference compared to the SEC in the big 10. When you play Virginia or my beloved Alma mater Wake Forest, it's not like playing Alabama, [00:38:00] Auburn, or Georgia, or Penn state, Michigan, and Wisconsin. So it's sort of easy to say, "Oh, Clemson, they haven't been tested and they're not as highly ranked." But then you got to remember, last January what they did to Alabama and weak schedule or not. I don't think you can count them out.
James Carville: I don't know. The betters don't count them out. They're a favorite against Ohio State. The gamblers have done... I mean, that's insane. They ran over, they beat Alabama like a bad piece of meat. It [00:38:30] was a trouncing they had out there in California.
James Carville: So I don't count them out. Ohio state. I mean, they got the four people up for the Heisman trophy, two of them play at Ohio State. That's pretty rare. Look, we're heading into what could be some of the more remarkable college playoff games that we've had in a long time. You've got Oklahoma, they got one loss. They got one of the best receivers in the country. [00:39:00] They got a Heisman finalists of quarterback. LSU's defense has been good the last two games of the year. But it's been suspect at times. I mean, the line opened at nine and a half that bet it up to 13, but we'll see.
Al Hunt: I think the betters know what they're talking about. I hate to say this because my wife was born in Oklahoma, but I think Oklahoma an also ran in this group. But boy, the other three.
James Carville: We'll see. It's gonna be a great-
Al Hunt: They're going to be some great game. Great [00:39:30] series. And I just hope that car ride goes well James. That's my biggest worry right now.
James Carville: I'm going to take my Ford Ranger pickup truck, so we can put all the stuff in the back. I'm really looking forward to it, and it's gotta be fun. And yeah, half of Louisiana will be up there, and people in a good mood. So we'll see.
Al Hunt: Well, go tigers. Listen. This has been great today and thank you all for listening. And we'll see you or we'll listen to you, we'll here you, we'll talk to you a week from now. Goodbye.
James Carville: [00:40:00] Good bye. Go tigers.