Lisa Remy on the Safest Path to Schools Reopening and Ben Sheehan on the Contents of the Constitution

While the Coronavirus creates chaos and uncertainty in every sector, there are few things as vital to both the immediate and distant future of the United States as the country's education system. And its importance is matched only by the complexity involved in starting the school year safely in a few months. As West Des Moines Community Schools Superintendent Dr. Lisa Remy points out, every school is different, and no one plan will suffice for all of the nearly 13,000 school districts throughout the country. And on the topic of learning, author Ben Sheehan ("OMG WTF Does The Constitution Actually Say?") laments the lack of civic education and what that means for the future of American democracy.

Show Notes:

00:00 – Intro
01:45 – Looking without and within for answers
08:30 – Playgrounds, bathrooms and cafeterias
17:00 – The stress of closing schools
22:45 – Maintaining morale
28:45 – Social studies vs. civics
34:00 – The most important amendment 
37:30 – A modern Dredd Scott
40:30 – The best way to utilize Biden
45:15 – Outrage of the Week

Transcript:

Al Hunt: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to 2020 Politics War Room with James Carville. I'm Al Hunt. I'm here in Washington. James is in the Shenandoah. We are proud partners with the SINE Institute at American university. We're going to learn a lot with today's show, but first please subscribe to the podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Every new listener helps. Thanks so much. So thanks for being here. You know, James, there are a lot of pressing priorities during this terrible pandemic. We all want the economy and jobs to bounce back. We all want to be able to share time and occasions with friends and family. For those like you and me, we want to watch sports again, but nothing, nothing is as important as opening schools later this summer, the educational and social costs to kids and their families are missing.

School is staggering and could take a long time to overcome. Same time. COVID-19 is surging in many places. And in your friend, John Berry, the foremost expert on the 1918 influenza told us four months ago, we're not preparing, unfortunately that as in too many places has been the case school superintendents all over America this week are struggling with some really tough choices.

To open. And how, what limitations, what contingencies one is Lisa Raimi, the superintendent of schools in West Des Moines, Iowa with 9,000 students, a lot of middle class kids, also over a third qualifying for the school lunch program. Uh, and she is one of the most outstanding school superintendents in the entire state of Iowa.

She joins us now from Des Moines. Thank you so much for being with us, dr. Ramy.

Dr. Lisa Remy: [00:01:43] Well, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Al Hunt: [00:01:45] You have gone through for weeks, what must be an agonizing, a series of choices you've decided at least for now in a hybrid plan, giving parents the option of online learning with permission or in person classes with very strict rules.

This must have really, really been a tough process. Tell us how you came to your conclusion.

Dr. Lisa Remy: [00:02:06] Yeah, I would tell you it's been a while. And I went into school administration. I, I guess I never imagined that I would be in the middle of a pandemic and having schools closed for a full quarter of the last academic year and then spending the entire summer and plan still continuing to plan, even though our board of education has made a decision, um, How we would open schools in the fall, in the middle of a pandemic.

So, you know, we've, we've done lots done, lots of learning ourselves, um, looking to countries outside of the U S to see how they continued to some. Continue to keep schools open. And what strategies and mitigation strategies did they put in place? Um, we've CDC guidance, of course, followed state guidance.

We've talked to school, our school attorney. Um, we have a leadership team that has, you know, from our school nutrition, school nurses, getting teacher feedback. Building level administrator feedback. Um, we've sent out surveys to all of our school staff, as well as our community, um, to get feedback. Yeah. In order to shape our decision that we took to the board on.

Monday, July 13th.

Al Hunt: [00:03:30] I can understand how a high school student or even middle school students can learn virtually. So it online. Uh, but how, how, if, if a parent of a seven or eight year old decides they want to take the online option, isn't that much more difficult and don't, they have to have a parent or someone with them.

Dr. Lisa Remy: [00:03:48] Yeah, I would agree with you. I think it's more challenging at the elementary level than it is at the secondary level. Um, you know, that peace and, um, ensuring that students are, um, online and, and because there's, it's not only. Synchronous meaning when we have teachers. So we would have teachers who are dedicated to working with our students online, but then there will also be that time that we're asking students to work, what we call asynchronously.

So that's when they're not online with a teacher, but they have work that they need to be doing at home. So, um, It would be imperative for families to set up routines. Absolutely. Um, for our, for all kids, no matter what grade level, but really more so at that, at that younger age, really in that, you know, That asynchronous time as well when the teacher isn't there guiding the student, um, through that learning process.

So it, you know, I, I would tell you our, our first goal was to really think about how we can get students back in the classroom, because while we believe in technology and that being a tool in education, um, We that virtual learning, we don't believe is always the best learning that we believe we can really be more effective, um, when we're face to face with kiddos.

And as we think about are helping kids learn to read, and those really young, you know, our preschool kindergarten, first graders, how important that work is. And so we've really had to work with our staff and our. I'm I'm so blessed to have a wonderful teaching and learning central office team to really reshape and rethink.

If we have a kindergarten nurse who, um, do too, whatever various reasons, select that online model, how we, um, provide that synchronous learning where we're really supporting them. And then what can we do asynchronously to help families as well? Because we know that that's really challenging for parents in this time.

Al Hunt: [00:05:55] And, and for those to choose the in person classes, uh, now we know young people aren't nearly as likely to get the virus or transmit the virus, but what kind of feedback are you getting from your teachers, your administrators, your janitors, your school, bus drivers, a number of home must be in their fifties or, or

Dr. Lisa Remy: [00:06:15] right.

Yeah. So another great question, you know, um, we've had. All of those folks have a part of our, our plan, but I will tell you now that the decision has been made, I have heard and heard previously, previously as well from some of our teaching staff who are really, um, concerned or worried about returning, um, and thinking about, um, their own health and safety.

And so what, what we continue to help. Shape and, and share with them is that right litigation strategies that we will put in place and are we asked our board to approve as well. Um, so for example, um, we are requiring all students to wear face coverings, and then we. We look at that differently, depending upon the grade level.

So elementary students we'll ask to be wearing those, uh, face shields. Um, okay. And then at the secondary, we would definitely have face shields as a possibility, but we would really see them wearing the face masks or the Gators we've defined it so that there are other options that students can can select when on the bus everybody's required to wear a face mask.

We're we're looking at. Um, for our drivers, for example, they will be provided with a face shield as well as face mask. We're asking students to, um, load from the back, um, and sit with siblings. And then obviously when we are, um, going off the bus there's from the front. So trying to reduce that, um, in between time.

Um, so I haven't heard a lot of concern yet from our transportation. So our bus drivers yet, um, they've, they've shared their director of transportation has shared with me that, you know, with the mitigation strategies, they're feeling, feeling okay about returning and they know that they'll have some extra cleaning, um, compared to what we've done in the past.

Um, but, um, It's it's just really thinking through, and that's where it gets complex about what are all of those mitigation strategies that we can put in place to help our staff feel more comfortable about returning to the classroom this fall?

James Carville: [00:08:29] Okay. Let's talk about three essential hours. I don't know if anybody knows this.

I'm a former school teacher. I taught free time. I left the Marine Corps and started law school. I talk about three areas, one the bathroom. Second, the playground. In third group, Jarvis, take them in any order you want, but like, are you going to have specific guidelines for the playground, the bathroom? I mean, you know, normally when kids just got to go to the bathroom, they just go.

But, and think to me the indispensable part of the school and how are you going to feed these children and what kind of playground policies will have in place?

Dr. Lisa Remy: [00:09:11] You know, again, I am really fortunate in Western wind community schools that I have a great team. So when I think about our director of nutrition, um, and, and how she and her staff pivoted in the spring and started feeding families, um, uh, with grab and go meals, um, couple of different times a week for the full week.

Uh, it's just pretty amazing. And so, as we have been planning for fall, it will look different at the, again at the elementary than the secondary. Um, but our first is to look at, um, feeding students in the classroom. So instead of having large groups of students going into the lunchroom and having, you know, a couple of hundred students in the lunchroom packed.

Shoulder to shoulder with each other. Um, third grade class, fourth grade class, the elementary students, um, put in and then, um, they will eat their classroom. It could be a we're deciding if it's a grab and go. So they'd actually walk to the lunchroom, grab it and go back. Or we're looking at the possibility of just having our, our food service folks deliver to the classrooms at the secondary we're adding lunch shifts.

So to reduce the number of students in the classroom, we are going to spread out the lunch shifts across, um, you know, a larger span of time. And so that we can again reduce the number of kiddos that are eating in the classroom. Cause that's, you know, even though we're, we're requiring face masks, that's when they have to take them off.

Right. We can't. Eat with our face masks on. So, um, we need to then start thinking more about that six foot social distancing at that lunchtime. So we're also looking at alternate places that we would have students to eat at the secondary. So outside died in our commons areas. Um, so really. Not only spreading out the number of lunch shifts, we're adding two and three lunch shifts, but also then spreading out where they would eat and marking off tables.

So for example, a lunch shift, number one would use the tables with green X's sauna and then lunch shift. Yeah. Number two would use tables with red so that we can claim the tables with green and not have that. I guess I'd call it contamination between groups of kids so that, you know, hopefully I'm what I'm trying to help you understand is the thought that has to go in and how we have to do school business differently, um, to bring kids back and to try to keep kids in adults safe.

So that's school lunch. Uh, when I think about recess, Um, we are looking at, instead of having the entire third and fourth grade out at recess at the same time, what we've asked our elementary principals to do is to, again, spread out recess times. And so having cohorts of students. So let's say at one of our elementary is we have.

Two separate playgrounds. So we would have like three, a and three B out at the same time, but they stay at those separate playgrounds. So reducing again, that intermingling of cohorts of students, um, and utilizing our playground space. Differently than we have in the past and, and, and keep kids on certain parts of our playground and reduce the number of students who are outside at the same time.

Another good thing is, is we know that outside with, uh, the transmission, right. It's the last, so that's, that's helpful for us as well. And then, um, let's see, nutrition, recess, bathrooms. Thank you. I knew there was another one. So, um, you know, we are. That hand-washing piece is so very important and we will need to take hand-washing breaks more often than when, what we've done in the past.

So, um, definitely every hour hand-washing or it hand sanitizing. So we will, um, Reduce the number of kiddos that we are just having go to the bathroom at the same time. Um, actually bring some of those handwashing stations to, uh, pods of classrooms, or I, I, I'm not going to say today that we have one for every classroom yet, because actually what we're finding is the supplies that we need.

Aren't easy to come by. And so it's again, thinking through that, um, how, what is our. What is our structure in the day look like we have, um, directional hallways, um, reducing the number of students. So maybe throughout a class period, you're rotating kids through and that some of you know, that next level of work now that we know what our plan is to start in the fall.

Now our building level principals with teacher teams need to be starting to put really some of those details in place around like bathroom breaks. Um, put the schedule together for the playground, um, all of those kinds of things that happen at that building level now.

James Carville: [00:14:08] Yep. So I have a follow up question.

How many hours a week have you been working?

Dr. Lisa Remy: [00:14:16] Oh, I think if you asked my husband, he'd say a 24, seven, seven days a week. Um, but yeah, it's been, it's been immense that's for that's for sure.

James Carville: [00:14:26] I mean, I just want people that are listening to us to understand just how difficult this stuff is. I mean, that's why I was so happy to get you on because most people don't think about the complexity.

Of having school in a pandemic and, you know, I think we got a pretty good idea that absolutely thank you. And every school administrate in the country, I mean, it's just the form 80,000 bus drivers. I looked it up in the United States. I mean, people got to stop and take complex organism of school. Bear in mind, my hats off to you and never school administrator to the United States.

Dr. Lisa Remy: [00:15:11] Yeah. Well thank you. I mean, it is, it is, you know, our jobs are complex. Yeah on a regular time, but this has taken it to a level that's really hard to explain. And I guess I shared with some people that since, um, for us in Iowa, it was a March, uh, 13. We went on spring break and we never came back. Um, but since March 13th, I have felt like every decision is in a very urgent category.

And, you know, and it's, and I've lived in this urgent category and our team has. Uh, in fact, one of my team members yesterday said, do we realize this has been four months? And, um, yeah, they've been really, yeah. Difficult decisions and decisions as you think about health and safety and knowing also how important it is to have, as I said earlier, to have kids in school, have our students back for their learning and to move them forward, educationally, um, you know, and then.

Understanding everybody has a different, you know, and I don't even know all of the, you know, with our families, there's underlying health conditions. As we stated earlier, we have adults in that high risk category that are our employees. Um, and then there's other adults that with that high risk could have high risk, um, you know, underlying health conditions as well.

So as we think about trying to come back to school, How do we do that in a safe manner? How do we ensure our, our adults that we are taking their concerns into consideration and yet help? I mean, I totally understand. Um, How difficult call it is with, for the economy. If our students aren't in school, how to, how do our families continue to work?

You know, that the stress that when we closed, it puts on all of our families. And so, you know, part of our decision making was really looking at what our families wanted. And we had, um, about 50% of our families. It was 48% say they really wanted their kids back in school every day. Five days a week. And we had about 20% that said they wanted their kids totally online.

And so as we, and then we had that, you know, in between 30 some percent that wanted a modified approach a couple of days, a week in person and then the rest online. And so as we, we thought about our. Recommendation to our board. We thought, you know, if we, if we think about being responsive to our community and, and what's best for kids, The app to provide the option to our families, either in person or online, made the most sense to us, knowing that we could and will Institute, um, mitigation strategies to help keep people safe.

But, um, I know that. Sometimes, no matter what people there's, they're still nervous. And we have to work through that with our employees. And, and I'll tell you another challenge that we're going to have as substitute teachers. So we've reached out to our subs. And right now we have about 50% of our subs who said, they'd be willing to come back this fall and sub when we need them to stop.

And so if you think about that, we, we already have challenging times in the Metro area. Because subs worked for multiple school districts. So how, if, if half of them are willing to come back and that's okay. Lesser number than what we've had in the past. And we've had challenges in the past covering all of our classes and now knowing, um, we'll have even fewer resources there.

What does that look like? And what kind of stress will that put on our system? So that's something, that's a data point we just got this morning. And so now we need to start thinking, how are we going to, um, When we need substitute teachers, because we may have a teacher who gets sick during this time. Um, how are we going to cover that classroom?

So that's our next step?

James Carville: [00:19:19] My hair is exploding.

Al Hunt: [00:19:20] Yeah. No. And, and let me just add a school opens, I think schedule opening the best six weeks. I think you've come up with. What strikes me is a really sensible approach giving your community and everything else, but it is also true that cases or not leveling out in Iowa, where they're actually increasing some.

Uh, and, uh, so what type of guidance, if any, are you getting from the state?

Dr. Lisa Remy: [00:19:46] Well, you know, that's a great another, thank you for that question. So I really do appreciate, um, the Iowa department of public health, but more, we work closer with the, our County health. So Polk County health department, and we've, um, we meaning our central Iowa superintendents had a meeting with them last week.

Um, and they. Uh, put out some guidance for like false sports. Um, you know, if we have a student who ends up being positive or staff member guidance on how we would make decisions, if we, we close a building or a classroom and go online, Go virtual. Cause we're going to be in and out of this and person kind of virtual, we believe probably for sure in the fall.

And I would guess all school year, I don't think 2021 school year will be, um, quite normal this year. And so, um, it, it really is. Working in conjunction with Polk County health and following the protocols that they've put in place for us. And, um, our school nurses have worked closely with them as well.

Al Hunt: [00:20:48] Back your Ramy. You mentioned sports and, and I know enough of the Moines to know that the Valley high tigers. Are among the great football teams in the state of Iowa. They're scheduled to have their opening game, August 28th against Roosevelt. Will there be a kickoff?

Dr. Lisa Remy: [00:21:03] Well, we haven't heard yet. Um, right now I would say that's too to be determined.

And, uh, I don't know. It's, you know, as I'm watching the colleges and what's happening there, I do have a wonder if we will end up having a. Football season this fall. I know that, um, in conversations with my IAD, our athletics director, that he and other ADSL really would like to see fall sports happen. You know, there's sports as well as any extracurricular co-curricular music and so forth, all play a really important role in our students' lives.

And so to be able to see them. Move in happen would be awesome. I wonder about certain sports like football, I'd even say volleyball in the close connection. You know, we Iowa allowed baseball and softball to happen. They started, um, in mid June. And if you followed any of that, you've seen that some. Uh, teams due to COVID cases have had to then cancel their season after, um, we knock on wood.

Yeah. We've here in Western wine. If our kids are stayed healthy and we're still in having a season, so they're going into post-season play actually at the end of this week. So yeah. But that though, you know, baseball and softball, the contact is not like football. And so, um, we're waiting to get some guidance from the girls and boys athletic unions.

Um, and I don't know, they, hopefully by the end of July, we'll hear more on that. Um, but I'm skeptical if that will, if we'll have a season.

James Carville: [00:22:46] The morale of your staff and, and teachers, and just the whole thing of it. Do you have a morale issue or how does that play in? This has got, gotta be stressful and a lot of people.

Dr. Lisa Remy: [00:22:57] Yeah. I, you know, we have a wonderful staff. Let me first say that, but I, I do know that. When you say it's stressful there. Absolutely. We have, we have some, you know, just like in any organization. So with all, when I think about all of our employees, we have, if you included substitute teachers, it could be anywhere up to close to 2000, but without substitute teachers, we'd say we typically have about 16, 1700 staff and that's all that's teachers, bus drivers.

Um, Childcare providers, all that we do. And so you have some that are just really anxious and ready to get back to work and thanks for the mitigation strategies. And then you have others that are really concerned, um, because of the possibility with the. With the recommendation and what the board approved Monday night, we could have classrooms that have 26 kids in them, depending upon we don't know yet the parents we'll select which model by the end of July.

And so I've heard from some teachers since Monday nights decisions that their, their stress level has gone up because they're concerned about having a, possibly a full classroom. And, and, um, you know, I talked to them about the different. Cleaning strategies that will be in place the mask wearing and in the research behind that and how that helps.

And then also the other possibilities that if possible, and this isn't always possible, you know, take the class outside when the weather's nice enough. And if it, if what you're doing in class, um, You know, would, would allow for that. Like if you could do that to be outdoors as well. So, but I do know that we, in fact, I was the meeting I was in earlier this morning with my small superintendent team.

Um, I said, we've got based on some conversations I had, I said, we've got to start thinking about how can we help our staff. Who are really concerned about returning this fall and, and start strategizing those strategies could be. And, and what time can we give them? That's the other piece? There's stress, not only just about having 26 in the classroom, but.

Today, I'm teaching face to face, and then we have case, and then tomorrow I might have to be online. So yeah, that planning and giving them time to be able to plan, to be repaired for when we have to move between in person and online learning. Well,

Al Hunt: [00:25:25] I have to tell ya, I tell you what we really learned. Dr.

Remy. We sit here in Washington or other places and it's going to Oakland or don't open and, and in person or not. Uh, and it almost makes it seem like it's easy decision I think have really, really elucidated today is these are really tough choices and it's not that anyone is, is always right or always wrong.

Uh, but it's, it's critical that kids go to school and it's critical that the virus not spread. And that's the dilemma that's been put in your lap and, um, You've, you've not only taught us a lot today, uh, as the great educator you are, but it seems to me that you're certainly heading in the right track.

And we really thank you a lot for being with us.

Dr. Lisa Remy: [00:26:11] Well, I do appreciate you having me on, and I will say, I think you said it, um, there isn't a, uh, the right plan, right? I mean, it's, it's a difficult decision that schools are in and, um, there isn't a perfect plan. So, yeah. Yeah. You know that the cost that. I think, uh, the state or the AAC.

So the national superintendents association, I think they estimated the cost to reopen schools is like an extra 490 per student for $90 per student. So just the extra cost and the funding. Isn't quite following that. The need to, for all of the different strategies that we have to put in place,

Al Hunt: [00:27:03] but. Wow, what challenge?

Well, if it, if the weather stays nice, go to my favorite place in the Moines and teach classes at a principal.

Dr. Lisa Remy: [00:27:12] Yes, that'd be awesome. Wouldn't it?

James Carville: [00:27:15] That would be,

Al Hunt: [00:27:16] it would be dr. Ramy, will James, do you have a closing word? I don't want to

James Carville: [00:27:22] date her. For taking time to do this. And I want everybody to listen to this show to understand you got a comp, I don't know how many individual school districts are in the United States.

It must be

Al Hunt: [00:27:32] 5,000 or 10,000. I think,

James Carville: [00:27:34] whatever it is, just time, this time that okay. And every school, every school superintendent, every school administrator is having to go through the same thing. And I'm just so glad we did this show and I'm glad that our listeners had a chance. To just see the challenges that people are faced with and, you know, people of our generation, we don't have kids.

So we don't think about it. But I think it's important for every American to think about the difficulty and challenges that educate as a habit across this country. But then I was just delighted that will show

Al Hunt: [00:28:05] a amen. And dr. Ramy go back to your real job and thank you so much.

Dr. Lisa Remy: [00:28:10] And thank you.

Al Hunt: [00:28:20] We have one more guest today. James Ben is a very humorous and a very talented young man, James carbo. He inherited honestly from his mom and his dad. Uh, we've worked with his dad, both of us have, and he's the best in the business. Uh, Ben has written a very funny and also book. Oh my God. The AF there's the constitution actually say the inspiration.

I think this is great. Ben is that we teach history. In school, but we don't teach civics. Most Americans don't even know there are three branches of government. You're right. And I suspect if I went out and I quiz people on what's the bill of rights, uh, I'd be lucky to break double digits. Uh,

Ben Sheehan: [00:29:02] no, that's, you're, you're completely correct.

It's something that, that we, we used to teach a lot of, uh, we teach a lot less of, and we've sort of gotten to this place where we're shoehorning it into. Into social studies or to U S history, but it's really its own focus and its own subject, knowing the mechanics of government so that we can both affect it and participate in it.

Al Hunt: [00:29:23] Well, I, you know, it's also the parts I love. I mean, what you do is you then, uh, you write, uh, you know, each amendment, each article, the declaration of independence, then you give your own little interpretation and after the declaration, uh, you basically say, look, King George, if you didn't get what we're saying, It's fuck you.

Uh, and I think that really adds to, so the understanding, but one of the things that struck me was reading and I read the constitution a number of times I've written a little bit about it. I don't have James. Carville's a legal scholar background, but you know, when I read about the ninth amendment, which I hadn't paid a whole lot attention to, frankly, it really dawned on me, Madison, as you put it with saying, Hey, There's a bunch of other rights that we probably forgot, but you have those rights too.

And that in a way is the reputation of those strict constructionist, like Alito and Thomas.

Ben Sheehan: [00:30:13] Yeah. And this is something that he had the wherewithal to, to understand, you know, the, the bill of rights. It's sort of the context of it being that this was something that was agreed to before. The constitution was signed.

There were a lot of, uh, States and representatives from those States who were extremely hesitant. They thought that this constitution was giving, uh, the, the, the federal government too much power and that's kind of what they wanted to avoid. So in exchange for the final ratification votes on the constitution, uh, Madison promised, uh, some of those delegates that he was going to add a bunch of amendments, uh, Which became the bill of rights to, to protect from, from government, uh, overreaching intrusion.

And it actually started with 19 teen, uh, that he drafted. And then that was whittled down, uh, by the, the Senate and the house to 12, that they then sent to the States and the States ratified 10. And those have become the, the 10 we all know about. But, um, this was very much his, uh, his design to say, you know, we were thinking of a lot of stuff, but there are some other things that we didn't include.

And just because they're not in here, doesn't mean that you don't have them.

Al Hunt: [00:31:18] Well, you also it's clear that that look, Washington and Jefferson are the most celebrated of the founders, but in many ways, Madison and Hamilton were as if not more important. And they're not as wreck at least before the musical, they weren't just recognized.

Madison wrote the constitution basically, and Hamilton establish the financial framework of America.

Ben Sheehan: [00:31:39] Yeah. And they've been sort of relegated to the, to the sidelines until recently. And I have my own sort of odd theories as to, as to why that is. But you know, you think about all the monuments and the buildings and the cities and towns named after, uh, uh, Jefferson and Washington, um, you know, looking back.

You know, Madison was only five foot four. Uh, he wasn't a great speaker. So, you know, at a time a pre social media, uh, pre cameras, as you know, standing in front of a crowd, he's he doesn't have a commanding presidency. He's not here able to really deliver and inspire. So those two things worked, uh, yeah, against him.

But when you go back and look at the convention and the contributions, his, his contributions, or so much more than, than we remember him for, for have doing.

Al Hunt: [00:32:25] He also, I'm turning it over to James now. He was born in my hometown. So, uh, that, that, that's another great feather in his cap. Orange, Virginia. Go ahead, James.

James Carville: [00:32:34] So Ben, when you start a faithless electors case come out of Supreme court nine to nothing. W were you pleased displeased or. Not that interested in the decision.

Ben Sheehan: [00:32:46] I was very interested in, in the decision. Um, you know, this is, this is something that goes very, very much back to the, the, the fundamental design was that States have very have control over their elections.

And specifically for presidential elections, the, uh, control over how they choose their electors. And. Uh, for, for anyone who's listening, who's not a hundred percent caught up. Basically what the Supreme court said is that, um, electors, uh, you know, some States mandate electors to, uh, to vote how the popular vote goes in their state.

Uh, some States don't mandate that and are those mandates constitutional and we're coming up on such a polarized election where there is a chance. As we saw in 2016, it didn't change the outcome of the election, but there were some electors that, that defected and went independent. Um, are those mandates constitutional?

So I'm not surprised at the decision, but I think it clarifies, um, you know, what we're going to be seeing so that we know, you know, for the existing laws in specific States, that mandate electors vote along with the, um, the popular vote in the state. Those are constitutional. If there are States legislatures that pass a law between now and November, Third, uh, those laws, if they're binding electors are also going to be constitutional.

So it sort of clarifies any ambiguity.

James Carville: [00:34:01] I think the most important provision in the constitution is the 15th amendment and it, it, and what's happened is the courts don't enforce the 15th amendment. So in Georgia, you have two voting machines for every thousand voters in Fulton, in the cab. And in all white Northwest Georgia, you have.

A hundred voting machines for every thousand people. And without the protection of 15th amendment, which is guaranteed the right to vote, your democracy is in trouble. And I think that, I think that the failure of the Supreme court to enforce the clear language of the 15th amendment has been hugely detrimental to our democracy.

Ben Sheehan: [00:34:46] I would agree with you completely. And I would add that I was in Georgia on election day in 2018. I founded an organization called OMG WTF that during the midterms stood for Ohio, Michigan, Georgia, Wisconsin, Texas, and Florida. And in those six States, uh, we did get out the vote efforts. We went and, uh, brought food to people waiting on long lines.

To vote. And I went to two places on election. Yeah. Day in Georgia in Gwinnett County, just Northeast of Atlanta. And the first place I went to was mostly white voters waiting in line. I'd say maybe 15, 20 minutes. Wait. And the second place I went, mostly voters of color. Yeah. And it was about a four hour wait.

Uh, there were 16 or so voting machines in the gym. They were only using two because that was the order from there. County board of elections. They only had two, uh, polling workers, uh, checking in voters. Why, even though they had more workers available order from the Gwinnette County board of elections, at one point they even turned off the AC and this is not something I ever thought I would see in my lifetime.

In fact, it's something that, that, that was covered to some extent in history books, uh, about the fifties and sixties and before. But what I think it goes back to is a very fundamental sort of misunderstanding that I think a lot of us have about. Institution in the sense that it never proactively says who can vote.

It says that citizen, as you point out in the 15th amendment, it says that us citizens can't have their vote denied because, because of their race, color, or previous of servitude, but it doesn't say the people proactively get these rights. And I think this is something that isn't discussed enough, but it's something that leaves a lot of power too.

The States and, and after the 15th amendment was ratified in 1870, you saw, um, so many laws that, that then became part of state constitutions things like, uh, literary literacy tests, um, uh, reading and understanding extremely, uh, complicated case law. You had things like poll taxes, which we know is in the, in the country.

Tuition at the 24th amendment abolishing those. Um, but you also had things like jelly, bean, I mean, literally voters of color being asked to guess the amount of jelly beans in a jar or the bubbles in a bar of soap. And, and one of my personal heroes, John Lewis talked about this, but every time we've had it sort of large advancement in democracy or expansion of democracy at the federal level, we've seen certain, not all, but certain state and local governments find loopholes.

And ways around it and ways to, to, to circumvent them, uh, to, to prolong discrimination. And I think in the wake of the Shelby County holder decision in 2013, we're seeing a lot of those methods sort of resurface that had been banned and outlawed for 48 years, but are now sort of rearing their ugly heads.

James Carville: [00:37:30] Yeah. Shelby County versus holder is a modern version of Dred Scott and Plessy. Is that bad? Yes. It really is horrible. And, and did it. It is not very difficult to read the 15th amendment and think that the Supreme court couldn't enforce that.

Ben Sheehan: [00:37:46] Right. You

James Carville: [00:37:47] know, and in the same thing you're talking about in Georgia happens in Florida every year.

It's, it's just outrageous.

Ben Sheehan: [00:37:54] I remember when, and also, you know, the, the, the F and OMG WTF was Florida. And so we were involved in, uh, we, we supported the governor's, uh, race, and we did an effort, uh, an event in a university of central Florida with, uh, A thousand students and Senator Bernie Sanders spoke and we all marched over to, to, to vote after that.

But one thing that I learned about in the, in the wake of the governor's races, all the absentee ballots by mail that were thrown out because of signature mismatch. And you literally have. People who are not trained forensic specialists, who are our volunteer poll workers who are sitting there looking at a signature, either on a, in a photo of a, um, a driver's license or a social security card, and then a photo, uh, a signature on the back of a absenteeism it and making their best guess as to whether or not the signatures match and then discounting ballots or counting them based on that.

And this is something that keeps me up at night. Uh, I'm very worried about this, but. To yes, to your point, we're seeing different versions of the same sort of suppression and in, in, in different States, uh, that were previously covered by the voting rights act, that that are no longer things to Shelby counter holder.

Um, but, but these are all these sort of new iterations, again, of a very old, uh, problem. And it's not specific to one state.

Al Hunt: [00:39:11] Well, I hope all of our listeners will get Ben Sheehan's book. It's O M G WTF. I think it stands for something slightly different than the, the, uh, 2018 States. Uh, Ben is, does the constitution actually say question Mark?

You will learn a lot, but you also will have a lot of fun. Me, Ben Chan say hi to your dad. And thanks for being with us.

Ben Sheehan: [00:39:35] I will. Thanks so much for having me,

Al Hunt: [00:39:44] James Carville.

James Carville: [00:39:46] Yeah, that was a hell of a cherub.

Al Hunt: [00:39:47] Well, we're not finished. Oh, Oh. Don't don't rest on your laurels yet. We're not finished. Uh, I'll been sure. I'm going to ask you this. This is going to be a very weak vote. The great Joe Biden is headed towards a victory in November, and it's going to be a good year for Democrats anywhere from a decisive to a tsunami.

But I'm going to ask you to do something. It's going to be tough. I'm going to ask you to get in Jenn Dillon's shoes. It's going to be a tight fit. This is the. Biden campaign manager and you don't have the luxury of just sand boy, this thing is all done. We're going to win. What, what are you thinking right now?

What are your worries? What are your considerations? What are your priorities? You're the Biden campaign.

James Carville: [00:40:27] Yeah, it is. This cycle is so fundamentally different. Because as we knew presidential campaigns, you had a campaign manager and a Dick, you know, Theo staffed, Ohio or wherever you ended that kind of stuff.

And you ran television ads. There is so much stuff going on away from the ball in this election. So much energy that exists outside of the Biden doormat. So you have to judge, do I need, you really need to do negative ads? When I got the boat, that's people, I got the never Trump was, I got all the, all of these different groups doing this.

And you know, if you look at what our friend, Roger Altman and Bob Rubin are doing in Florida, how do you assess all of the assets that you have that are really not under your control? And then you fill in, in supplement that, but the biggest asset at a candidate or campaign has is its candidate. And I think they're using president Biden very well now.

And of course, it's going to be more of a go to that convention, how that works out. They're going to have debates. You know, they can have different decisions like that, but we tend to go Arctic up when they're going to start playing in Georgia, who's up medically. There's going to be spots all over Georgia.

So it just, I think it's assessing an inventory and where you are in the campaign can, can move within that framework. Not as one of the things I want to talk about, but we live in that's the Republican convention. So this thing starts at it's going to be in Charlotte. So Trump gets my head, it took moving to Jacksonville.

Of course, Florida is Brazil now. And so the is now they're going to do it outside. Okay. Jacksonville is about the same latitude is new Orleans. So in the Republican convention, it was August 23rd to 26. Let me tell you what it does in the afternoon, in early evening at that latitude. It rains a lot. The second thing, you gotta worry about that you're hitting your boat in the time of the hurricane season.

So, and the humidity is off the chart. We're just sitting outside in Jacksonville at three o'clock in the afternoon, you're going to melt. And this thing, this whole Republican convention thing is, is laughable. It's laughable and it's all because of him and now no, no one wants to be, I mean, all of the, like even ms.

McConnell is not going to go, but it is going to be a catastrophe wrapped in a fiasco. I mean, this is, this is really. This is really a stupid thing.

Al Hunt: [00:43:27] It is the biggest, I guess, winter. And this is Charlotte, North Carolina, because they're not, they're not stuck with it. Let me, let me, let me just wrap up finally.

Uh, the Jen Dylan thing, if you're a campaign manager, even when things look as great as they look now, you have to, you have to have a worry. You have to think, okay, what is my biggest worry? So I can prepare for the eventuality of that something bad, man. What's your biggest worry right now

James Carville: [00:43:53] they launched some kind of attack.

You know, like a Swift boat thing, right. Are the pillars, email or something and you don't tend to it and it causes an infection. Alright. Aye. Aye. I don't think that's going to happen, but that would be, would be worrying me.

Al Hunt: [00:44:10] Oh, James. We know it's going to happen. We know they'll do it. The question is whether it's effect,

James Carville: [00:44:15] I don't think it'll read infections.

Al Hunt: [00:44:18] Right.

James Carville: [00:44:20] And so far nothing has worked. And there's a very good piece in five 38. I just read where they actually, Biden has more enthusiastic voters than Trump. And it's very good because you're right. People aren't as enthusiastic about voting for Biden, but what they're really enthusiastic about is voting against Trump and that's the way the real enthusiasm gap.

Yes. And when people understand that, and I think Jen. It's got a Sterling reputation from everybody that I talk to. And I think that they understand that too. There's just, just a lot of the base thing they gotta do. They have to harness this energy. That the harness descendants. Cause you, you couldn't create energy.

Like Trump creates energy. It's just impossible. So when you, you know, when you got a bucking Bronco, you just got to hang on and ride sometimes

Al Hunt: [00:45:13] hang on and ride. Right. Uh, before we go, we're going to try something and we're going to steal from an old. Television show that I used to do and have an outrage of the week at the end, but we're going to have a, a caveat.

We cannot do anything that's related to Trump, because if that were the case, we would just have to top ourselves every week. Cause everything he does is an outbreak. So it's kind of a non Trump outrage of a week and I'm going to go first, uh, ESPN suspended. They're really top notch, NBA reporter, uh, Adrian.

Well, Generale ski for an obscene tweet. He directed at Missouri Senator Josh Hawley. Now, you know, Adrian could have been a little more artful, but this is terrible overreaction. The real offense here, uh, is not the reporter, but it's Senator Holly who blamed a racist elements. And the Trump base when I 2024 compliant NBA players or allowed to show support for social justice.

But not anti plea or, but they can't put in a anti Chinese are appropriate slogans on their back. Senator, let me explain something to you. Almost 80% of NBA players are African Americans. They cared deeply about racial and justice illuminated by the murder of George Floyd. By bringing in these other matters, you are debasing that concern.

But then again, you're the same Senator who wants to keep those military bases named after pro slavery Confederate traders, James I'm with Adrian.

James Carville: [00:46:47] Yeah, I guess my outrage would be, if any mistake, anybody makes now is met with the death penalty. This, this is all across the spectrum. I mean, you know, there are misdemeanors and felonies that there are.

Sometime to give you a year, some give you life imprisonment. All right. And when the culture all across the spectrum of coaching, when it becomes is unforgiving, as it is becoming, the result is not going to be good. It's not going to be good. And everything in this world has perspective everything in this world.

Has nuance and what that guy did, maybe he shouldn't have done it. All right. Marilyn reprimand. You'd kick him off after two weeks or something like that, but Nope, everything there's no, there is no penalty in American culture other than the death penalty. And that's just not the way to Ronald country.

Al Hunt: [00:47:48] Yeah. And Senator Holly will get no Penley, uh, unfortunately, but, uh, this is really been an interesting Joe, James. I think I probably learn more from this than any show we've done. I want to thank everybody. Starting with Lisa Ramey. And I thank everybody out there for listening to 2020 politics war room.

Follow the show on Twitter. I politics, war room more and more people have been emailing the show. Politics war room@gmail.com. If you have a comment or question for us, appreciate your feedback. Thanks for subscribing. And please rate with a nice review. If possible, please be safe out there. That inquiries you'd rains.And we'll talk again next week.