Conor Lamb on Biden's Everyman Appeal and Rashawn Ray on the Aftershock of Kenosha

Any opponent of Donald Trump has their work cut out for them, as his use of disinformation, dishonesty and disorder are unprecedented. So the U.S. representative from Pennsylvania's 17th congressional district Conor Lamb fully understands the rough road ahead for Vice President Biden over the next few months. Yet Lamb also is keenly aware of the candidate's realist perspective, and just how useful that will be for campaigning in the part of his state often referred as "Trump country." Plus Dr. Rashawn Ray, a David M. Rubenstein Fellow in Governance Studies at The Brookings Institution and Professor of Sociology and Executive Director of the Lab for Applied Social Science Research at the University of Maryland, College Park lends his considerable expertise to the conversation on what should be done in the wake of the protests throughout the nation.  

Show Notes:

01:00 – Intro
03:00 – Trump's America
07:00 – Idealists and Realists
09:45 – The reality of fracking
13:00 – Who sets the agenda?
15:30 – The upcoming class of leaders
21:00 – Kenosha's police force
25:30 – Disproportionate violence
31:00 – A disconnect from the community
35:30 – The wrong kind of union for change
39:30 – The modern decline of violent crime
49:00 – Unceasing diversions

Transcript:

Al Hunt: [00:00:00] On the podcast, 'Nice White Parents', reporter Chana Joffe Walt, you may know her from this American life, started looking into this one school in her neighborhood after her kids became school age in New York city, Hannah examines is public middle school, traditionally filled with black and Brown students.

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All these years. White parents. Nice white parents. Fascinating. Listen. That's deeply relevant today. It's made by serial productions in New York times company. Same people who made the hit podcast, serial and S town. All episodes are now available. Wherever you do. Get your podcast.

Hello and welcome to 2020 politics war room with James Carville. I'm Al high and we're proud partners with a sign Institute at American university in Washington someday. We'll get back the last two weeks we brought you comprehensive average and the Democrat and Republican national committee. Now we're on the road to November.

I want to thank everyone for passing the word to your friends and family about our show, Joe, please subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. James Eric gas was the band guard for the Democrats, essentially in 2018, Conor lamb won a special election in Western Pennsylvania, early that year, and then a big victory in November, a political legacy.

His grandfather and uncle were prominent Democrats in Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania. He's a graduate of my second favorite school, the university of Pennsylvania. And your favorite military unit, the Marine Corps, and a former prosecutor. Thanks for being with us. Congressman lamb.

Conor Lamb: [00:01:55] Thanks for having me, gentlemen,

Al Hunt: [00:01:57] Kenosha and violence scares some Democrats.

Uh, some people call them Ben wetters Joe Biden came to your hometown, Pittsburgh to give a law and order speech.

James Carville: [00:02:06] How did it go over?

Conor Lamb: [00:02:08] It went over well. Um, you know, I think the biggest thing that comes across with him is his sincerity. And in particular, he is sincere about the fact that, that you, you don't have to choose between these things that the president always tries to make people choose between.

You know, he talked about bringing police and communities together, and if you you've ever worked in law enforcement, like I have, you know, that that's an everyday part of the job, uh, people that work in law enforcement. Want to be close to the community. They want to do a good job. They want to walk the streets and have the people that live in these cities.

Be proud of them and feel comfortable talking to them. And it makes everybody. Uh, better off, but, uh, you know, it's been a while since we had a national figure, like vice president Biden stand up and, and kind of speak out from the heart in favor of common sense and compromise. And it's, it's just a really nice thing to see.

And I think people here react

Al Hunt: [00:02:58] well. Trump obviously believes that the race

Rashawn Ray: [00:03:00] card,

Al Hunt: [00:03:01] he went to Kenosha to fan those fires and violent crime is his calling card for November. Are you one of those concerned about that?

Conor Lamb: [00:03:10] No, I think, um, you know, I I've talked to probably tens of thousands of people around Western Pennsylvania in the last couple of years in the course of running these campaigns.

And, and I trust people to have some common sense. And what vice president Biden said is right, this is happening in Donald Trump's America. Like he has fanned the flames. He has, is not making it better. He's making it worse. Um, you know, the idea that, yeah, that a child would cross state lines with something like an AR 15 and shoot people in an environment like this and that it wouldn't be condemned.

It would be encouraged by this whole political movement that the president is part of. Is is something that really scares people. And I think they understand that, and that's not to pin any particular death or crime on the president or anybody else, but it's about the role of a leader in trying to create a climate where you can lower the temperature.

And I think that's what vice president Biden talked about. And that's a real thing. People understand that

Al Hunt: [00:04:06] Congressman some of your district is really Trump country, Beaver and Butler county's went. Heavily Republican and 16. How does it look now? How does, how is Biden doing in Western Pennsylvania saying in comparison to Hillary?

Conor Lamb: [00:04:19] Uh, I think he has a better chance here is the way I would put it. I mean, obviously there's no, there's no scoreboard. You have poles all over the place. Um, it can be a little bit harder to tell, but I do, I think that that vice president Biden speaks the language of all of Western Pennsylvania, a little bit more, you know, he came from the type of household and the type of background that a lot of our folks came from.

Um, he's he sounds like somebody that would be in one of our families and he talks a lot about jobs. He uses the word jobs a lot and it has a credibility. Coming from him, you can tell he's passionate about it. Um, and that he's not given up on anybody. He's not given up on any industry. Um, he wants to people see people work to build the same kind of middle class life that he had.

Uh, and so I think that's going over pretty well. And you just don't see the same, same level of kind of resentment toward him. And I think that's in part just because kind of the way that he is.

James Carville: [00:05:15] So. You were very accustomed to in the past that people would kind of run away from the national ticket, but, but I gathered it.

You were whispers present Biden when he gave the speech. And I think he paying with one of the few people that when you ran and you're a great campaign manager by the way of love and. You actually feel like he's somebody that you can campaign with in your district? Is that a correct analysis?

Conor Lamb: [00:05:45] That's right.

Yeah. Like I said, I think he just, uh, I think he speaks the language here. He feels like one of our own. And, um, you know, you hear around here a lot, people talk about kind of old school Democrats or, or the Democrats of JFK and FDR, particularly out in these areas in Washington, Beaver Butler, county's Westmoreland.

Um, A lot of these people are still registered as Democrats, even if they haven't voted as a Democrat in a national election in a really long time, but they, they never took the step of changing their registration because they still believe in it. A lot of the things that the democratic party stands for, they, they just wish that we looked and acted a little bit more like maybe some of the people they remember.

And I think that the vice president Biden is pretty close to that for a lot of them. And what always comes across. To me when he comes here to visit is just the amount of respect that he has for working people of all kinds and the way he shows it and the way he stops and talks and listens to each one of them, no matter who they are, no matter who they vote for.

It's, it's refreshing. And I think that does open some doors here that other candidates would not be able to.

James Carville: [00:06:52] So kind of, I don't really, I don't know what the dichotomy is. I call it idealist and realist and I would consider myself in you. Interesting in the realist camp, I thought, you know, people will tell us to fall out or whatever.

And if this election turned about like I hope, and I think it will, the democratic house caucus and Senate caucus, if anything, we'll be more toward the realistic side of things, because if we pick up some, some house seats, they're very likely to come from suburban districts and the Senate seat. If we're successful, as I hope and think we're going to be are going to be Cal Cunningham and get a big Mark Kelly gonna be John Hickenlooper, going to be Steve.

Well, it's going to be roast, et cetera, et cetera. And I don't know people, if a lot of people say to the further left than we are fully appreciate that the change just kind of come in 2021 is not exactly what they think. I think you're going to have a very realist, pragmatic. Increasingly realists and pragmatic in the house and even more so in the Senate.

Do you share that

Conor Lamb: [00:08:03] view? I do. Yeah. And I think it's going to be a, a day to day struggle in some sense to, um, to count up votes, particularly in the house caucus, which can, can have a much wider spectrum. Um, ideologically probably even in the Senate that you're talking about, but I do, I like your word.

Realists a lot, because I think that one of the things that separates realists in the international sphere where that word is used a lot is the idea that, you know, we accept certain shortcomings that are just part of human nature, you know? And, and I think that the nature of people is not going to change that much, regardless of whether Democrats or Republicans are elected in 2020.

And just look at, you know, in the midst of a pandemic that we know is killing people every single day. How difficult it can be to get people, to do some things like wear masks or stay away from bars or whatever it is. Um, you know, so realists are, or are people that are trying, um, not to take half measures, but to take full measures that can actually get done.

Um, and I think that separates us from people who are proud to stand for an idea, but, but not necessarily accountable for how that plays out in real life. And so that's the debate we're going to be having every day.

James Carville: [00:09:14] Yeah. Thank you for the common, cause I really struggle hard as to how to like. The distinction between.

We're sort of experiencing among Democrats

Conor Lamb: [00:09:26] that makes you the Henry Kissinger of our side.

Al Hunt: [00:09:33] That's the first time he's

Conor Lamb: [00:09:34] been.

Al Hunt: [00:09:36] I think he hopes it will be the last, just a couple things. Fracking. Is that a big issue out there? And as Joe Biden gotten right on that.

Conor Lamb: [00:09:44] Uh, yes, it's a very big issue. Um, Joe Biden is right on on it, but we have a lot more work to make sure people know that. So, um, you know, here, here's why fracking is such a big deal in Western Pennsylvania.

Uh, if you think about these outlying counties that we've been talking about, uh, they used to have a massive number of jobs in steel in particular, and some in coal and some in other types of manufacturing. And these were the types of jobs that. Sustained a middleclass life style for entire family. So, you know, people in steel mills in the seventies here were earning 30, even 40 bucks an hour, union wage, great benefits.

Um, and over time, a lot of those went away. And as the economy changed, yes, there were new tech and finance jobs and things like that in the city of Pittsburgh, but a half an hour away. At most of these jobs were replaced by $18 an hour healthcare jobs, you know, and not much more until the gas revolution came along.

All of a sudden there were middle class jobs available, again, for people that wanted to work with their hands and weren't afraid of the elements and wanted to build things. Um, and a lot of people. Built a middle class life for themselves, their family, again, on the natural gas work. And by the way, in the course of that decade, these people in my view contributed more to carbon reduction in our country than just about anybody else, because almost all of the carbon reductions we've achieved as a nation have been due to the switch from coal to natural gas.

And it has done a lot for us overseas by making us more energy independent. So there's a ton of benefits that come with it that people around here know about. And they're proud of. And they're not really asking for, for any favors or subsidies or anything like that. They just don't want someone to who's hostile to their job and their way of life right now.

And so the Trump campaign started spreading this, uh, this lie that Biden was opposed to it's a fracking, which he's not. And so he came in his speech on Monday and he repeated it twice for anyone to hear it that he does not oppose fracking. Uh, but there have been commercials running for weeks here on this subject, uh, repeating the false sense of the Trump campaign.

And, and we've got to clean that up and we've got to expose people to what the truth really is.

Al Hunt: [00:11:54] Just a few more, then I'll turn it over to James Kissinger. Carville um, you know, you, when you ran, I came out there and in 2018, and one of the things that you ran on that you were not going to vote for Nancy Pelosi.

For speaker, you didn't vote for her for speaker now that you've served for two years and a half, I think I make the argument that she's been pretty good to the, as you call them the realist.

Conor Lamb: [00:12:17] I think that leading the democratic cough caucus is a tough thing for anybody because we do a range across a pretty wide spectrum.

Um, and there have been some clear decisions that she's made that have been to our benefit. And I think the right decision, you know, I would say voting multiple times on, um, Allowing Medicare to bargain for prescription drugs has been an important issue for an area like mine. Um, she worked pretty hard on the trade agreement with Mexico and Canada to make it labor friendly, um, and you know, a couple of other measures as well that I think have been good.

So you're right. That, um, she definitely does a good job paying attention to the so-called, uh, realist faction, but, um, you know, there, there are, uh, there are pluses and minuses and I think the left has gotten plenty of wins as well.

Al Hunt: [00:13:04] Well, I'm a great defender. Let me just one, just one final thing. And then James, you take over.

I, I agree. I think Biden did, did very well this week. Answer the charges. I think Trump is not really succeeding much, uh, with this, uh, race baiting, but this also was a way congressmen without any real national discussion. Of COVID-19 or the ACA where Trump is trying to take away preexisting conditions, protection.

Uh, if, uh, I mean, don't, the Democrats have to make sure that Trump doesn't set the agenda every week and that's, uh, that can be a difficult task.

Conor Lamb: [00:13:37] It can be very difficult. Um, there's no doubt. And so I think that, um, you know, I think vice president Biden really did a good job during the convention of. Uh, kind of presenting his own story and his own case, and really highlighting his plans for dealing with the pandemic, which, uh, is him setting the agenda.

Cause they're all places where this administration has just retreated and refuse to lead. So, so Biden really is laying down his own ideas there when it comes to, you know, mobilizing national resources for, for testing and for PPE and for opening schools and stuff like that. Um, but this issue of. Of Kenosha and Portland and everything.

I would argue that that's not really responding to the president's agenda. It's responding to the facts on the ground. I mean, that's an important story for this nation because people are choosing to do that in places like Kenosha and Portland. They're, they're both protesting for their rights peacefully.

And there's another faction that is, uh, committing crimes. I think a leader like vice president Biden has to be nimble enough to say where he stands and I'm happy that he did that because it's common sense. I think that's what most people believe that they don't want to see anyone on burning down a store or destroying property that, that ruins the message of the protesters themselves.

It's something that John Lewis would have never condoned. Um, but at the same time, you have to be able to stand up. To this culture that encourages someone like Kyle Rittenhouse to go to Kenosha and kill people. And that is not a difficult thing to do. It's the right thing to do. And you can do both. I mean, they, they both are about protecting people from violence, even though they're the two types of violence are on a totally different scale.

Uh, we have to be against both. I mean, I always tell people I was a prosecutor. I prosecuted everything from murderers and rapists down to, you know, young Marines that use synthetic drugs and I'm against all of it, but they got very different sentences and treatment for me. And that's a leader has to be nimble enough to do that.

James Carville: [00:15:30] So I'm a big fan, 2018 campaign ran and many, many of the people that came to Washington. And of course, I'm very proud of you because you've kind of seen it. That class, because you actually, one year, you're your seat in the special election. Prior to that, I know there are your colleagues and you like them all, but could you give our subscribers or listeners?

Maybe a couple of people at UC, uh, in the democratic caucus, younger people that are world. Keeping an eye on as we go forward that you think have real talent and a real future in American politics. And by including two people, you're not excluding other people. I want to be very clear about this, but I'm just, I'm always on the shop, over the lookout for young talent and boy.

Conor Lamb: [00:16:19] Good. I'm glad. Okay. Yeah, no, we have some, uh, We have some really good, we have some really good people. Yeah. And, um, you know, I'm, I'm close with a group of us that all were sort of in the military or, um, a couple of them were intelligence agencies or public service types of jobs. So. Um, you know, people like Alyssa slough, Elaine Lauria, Abigail Spann burger.

Um, we, we talk a lot, work together, a lot, a guy who I think deserves a lot more attention than he gets. Um, but he's from. Kind of the extreme corner of the country is Jared golden, uh, who was also a Marine, a lot of combat service. And he has the largest district. I think, East of the Mississippi, there's this massive rural district up in Northern Maine, uh, which is very independent minded, um, and not easy for a Democrat.

Uh, but Jared just works. The district like crazy speaks the language. He's not afraid to, to kind of stand up to our own party leaders. And that's something I think you see in common among our group is we're Democrats, but we're all kind of willing to admit that. Uh, the Democrats are not coming to every issue with clean hands and we have not been perfect for the last generation.

And we would like to see some more kind of common sense, um, maybe realist to use your word, uh, leadership within our own caucus. And we're not afraid to speak up about that while still sort of working as part of the team. And yeah, maybe that's what I like about these folks is we all came from backgrounds where we were we're part of big teams, whether it was the Marine Corps or the Navy or the CIA or whatever, when you're in a group like that.

You know, that you have to speak truth to power and, um, and have a big sense of responsibility for yourself, but you always know that you're part of something larger and it's not about you specifically, you know, your ego is not really the most important thing on most days. And so I think we're able to kind of kind of work both within our own caucus and across the aisle as a team in part, because of our background.

James Carville: [00:18:14] Okay. That's, that's valuable. And I completely agree with that just before I let you go, I'll just skip it. The most dynamic young person. I think one, the person of democratic party right now, it's Adrian, the may of Shreveport. He grew up in a totally impoverished neighborhood. He was the first black brigade commander at West 0.3 towards the bronze door president of his class at Harvard.

Last thing back being incumbent to the what. And I think Adrian, if somebody, I know it's a very tough where he, for him to win and reach down in 2020, but I think young people like you and Adrian Perkins and people like that really. Make me optimistic because for awhile it was like the democratic party had after fight and we had older leaders and lacked energy.

And I think there's a lot, a lot of useful energy in the party just waiting to break out. And I'm very encouraged by that. I really am. And I would just, without comment would remind you that there is a competitive Senate race in Pennsylvania in 2022. And I would just leave it at that.

Conor Lamb: [00:19:25] Well, and maybe, maybe without comment, uh, I'll give you my wife's phone number after this, and now you guys, you can talk future strategy.

We're about to have our first child and we're not looking any further down the road than that, I guess. Um, but yeah, I know Adrian, Adrian sounds great. I've heard you talk about him before and. Um, he's exactly the type of guy that I hope, uh, you know, maybe if the Senate election doesn't necessarily work out because of how tough it is.

Um, I know that vice president Biden is on the lookout for, for a lot of young folks to fill out the administration as well. And I, now that I've gotten to see up close, you know, the importance of so many of these administration jobs and what we're trying to do, I hope we can. You know, just bring a whole generation of young people into Washington to work on these things and really implement the changes that we need to see.

Al Hunt: [00:20:09] Well, man, this town needs it. That's for sure. Congressman, uh, you've been great with your time. Uh, and, uh, we won't, uh, tell your wife, uh, that we won't mention the 20, 22 race for at least you. Two and a half months. Okay.

Conor Lamb: [00:20:21] I appreciate it. And thanks for what you guys are doing. I really enjoy every episode and, uh, hope you keep pushing them out there.

Great. Be safe, sir. Have a good one.

James Carville: [00:20:37] Rayshawn Ray is one of the

Al Hunt: [00:20:38] foremost experts on place, community relations and violence of sociologists. He's a David Rubenstein fellow at the Brookings Institute. And directs the center at the university of Maryland's applied science, social services lab. Hey Rayshawn. It's really a pleasure to be with you.

Thank you for joining us

Rashawn Ray: [00:20:56] is a pleasure to be on. Thank both of you for having me on the show. When you see and you read about,

Al Hunt: [00:21:01] and the aftermath of the Jacob Blake tragedy, she lives in the back, has children in the car, please claim he had a knife, uh, in the car. Uh, tell me your take.

Rashawn Ray: [00:21:10] So I had a couple of thoughts.

First thought that I had is I typically try to get as much information as I can. So I mean, obviously we were seeing a cell phone footage. I was trying to see if there was body worn camera footage there wasn't. Uh, but there was an audio, uh, clearly something had happened before on the other side of the car, but the bottom line was that I seen a man who at the time that he was shot, did not pose any threat to them, other people.

And the officer who was pulling on his shirt, To end up being shot seven times in the back. And it's, it's an unfortunate reality that we have to be very realistic about, which is that black people are 3.5 times more likely than whites to be killed by policemen. They're not attacking or when they have a weapon.

That's some of that is a bit. A bit fuzzy about Jacob Blake, but at the time that it happened, the police officers had other tactics they should have used besides shooting him like that.

James Carville: [00:22:05] Well, you've studied

Al Hunt: [00:22:06] place departments and I've read where you said some middle-sized police departments have made some real reforms in policing community relations.

James Carville: [00:22:15] That does not appear

Al Hunt: [00:22:16] to be the case in Kenosha. Uh, the sheriff they're so separate, uh, after they apprehended some black shoplifters suggested some lives just aren't worth it. And, and, and these cops did not seem to behave in any kind of professional way. Is this, as you look at it now, from what you know, uh, is this just one of those police departments that hasn't done proper training?

Rashawn Ray: [00:22:37] It seems to be the case. I mean, it seems to be that they have a series of problems. The big window is a lack of accountability. Now training becomes a part of that accountability process, but there is no way that a sheriff or a police officer, deputy, deputy, or what have you should be able to, to be in that position and make a statement like that, to say that some lives are not worth living in the last time I looked at it, shoplifting that the penalty for that is not death.

And so we have to be very clear that it doesn't mean that some people shouldn't be. Arrested. It doesn't mean that some people shouldn't go to jail, but what also shouldn't happen is that law enforcement should not simply take the law into their own hands and kill people whose lives they think are less than.

I mean, this is one of the reasons why people say black lives matter for this exact reason is because we see these particular outcomes. And in places like a Nosha I've studied these places. For years and worked with the, with departments in these particular places that oftentimes they are under the radar until something like this happen.

So, I mean, we'll see broad scale change coming from there, but we need to ensure that we do the proper investigations on the front end to try to not have incidents like this, you know,

Al Hunt: [00:23:44] Rayshawn, they're also reports from Portland, Oregon when right wing outside agitators come in. One killed someone in Wisconsin that the police not only don't try to stop

James Carville: [00:23:55] them.

But almost welcome

Al Hunt: [00:23:58] them. Uh, is this commonplace? Is this, I would think this is a huge problem.

Rashawn Ray: [00:24:04] I mean, it's definitely a huge problem. So Rebecca Shankman and I was a intern at Brookings and also works with me at university of Maryland. We wrote a piece about anti now protests and the rise in guns, and it falls into what we seen in Kenosha and also what's happening in Portland and Seattle.

And part of what it is is that oftentimes when they're different and perceptions, when people see white people with guns and black people with guns, when they see white people with guns, they think, Oh, they're defending things. They are on our side. When often Taj people see black people with guns, they think that they are criminals and villains, and both of those perceptions are problems because they stereotype both groups and put them into a box.

And instead, what we need to have happen is that. When law enforcement sees someone bringing guns to a particular place. And of course, look, I'm from Tennessee. I'm a big second amendment person. Um, you know, I think it's, everyone's right to do that, but we also need to make sure that we have protocols and checks in place.

Yeah, really? What you're getting at is the rise in rights wing, extremism general, John Allen, who was president of Brookings. He. Wrote a report for the department of Homeland security showing the ways that right wing extremism was rising, the way that this was domestic terrorism, a threat to our democracy, and also highlighted the ways that these right wing extremists were infiltrating law enforcement.

And there are a lot of examples around the country where that's the place where that's the case. And we definitely need to do something about it.

James Carville: [00:25:27] Restaurant. I don't have the statistics in front of me, but it seems to be over a period of time. Yeah. When they try these police officers, the verdict tends to come back.

Not as people expected to be a thought, it would be in more often than not. They're found, not guilty or as a lesser than included Burdick. I mean, a response to verdict, you know, it could be like negative homocide as opposed to murder it. Am I remembering my statistics? Correct? Or is there some factual basis for

Rashawn Ray: [00:25:59] this?

So you are, I mean, look and over 90%. Of the time that a police officer kill someone, um, not only are there not any charges filed against the officer, but I'm going to trial and then being found guilty, isn't even higher hurdle. I mean, basically in 95% of the time when police officers kill someone that nothing happens at all.

And it's important for people to note that over the past, Uh, several years that over 1000 people are killed every single year by law enforcement. Um, this disproportionately impacts the black community. Uh, every 40 hours a black person is killed by law enforcement. And rarely to your point, do we see any sort of justice?

A lot of this is centered on qualified immunity. Now, what people need to understand about qualified immunity is that it applies to civil culpability. However, meaning. Police officers can't face any sort of financial, um, repercussions or, or have to pay restitution. But the problem with qualified immunity is that oftentimes it becomes to be interpreted as something that applies criminal courts and juries, judges, and prosecutors buy into this interpretation.

Right. Even if the law doesn't exactly read it that way. So that's the reason why. Like the George Florida justice and policing act, for example, that passed in the house of representatives was aiming to deal with qualified immunity. I think there is another way to circumvent it and that deals with making a shift in, um, civil payouts for police misconduct away from taxpayer money and to police department insurance policies.

There are some who are pushing for police officer malpractice, insurance. I'm not exactly against that, but I'm definitely in favor of police department insurance policies that comes out of the police department budget and away from taxpayer money in general funds, which are monies that could be being spent on education and work infrastructure, which we know actually reduces.

James Carville: [00:27:55] So we had a, um, and I assume that you're in the camp of people that says that we need police, but we need effective and humane policing. And we had an earlier guest as a Pitt local best by name. I think David Harris. And we asked him what are some thought of successful examples. And he pointed to Camden for a small or midsize city.

And he said, actually, lap PD had gotten considerably better in your mind. Are there some models that is, as we go forward, that we can. Show to demonstrate why it can have really effective and humane policing comes to your mind.

Rashawn Ray: [00:28:31] Obviously Camden and LAPD are the two big examples that people highlight. I mean, LAPD, obviously, because of what happened after Rodney King riots, and it should also be important for people to know what that attorney general bar was also the California attorney general when Rodney King happened.

I mean, there were these similarities. The U S attorney general, sorry, U S attorney general at the time. And I mean, these things, thanks for that clarification. And these important linkages are things that we should look at. You know, I think with Camden, similar to LAPD, what people need to realize is that our society and organizations are similar to humans in a sense.

Um, and what I mean by this is when you get sick, often times you get sicker before you get better. So when police departments are making changes, these changes are not going to happen overnight. Like people look at Camden, this did not happen overnight. Got worse before they got better, but then they eventually got better.

So people just need to be patient. But part of highlighting that is the community has to be involved. Often these changes that's where Camden went wrong. Yeah. First we also have to separate a Camden from an LAPD. Camden did what we would call. They abolished their police department and they rebuilt it.

So when people say abolish for people who are like, Oh, we should do what cam did, did well, you know what? That's abolishing the police department. So if people don't like that term, they need to think about what they might be advocating for more. So why they think Camden did a good job, but they don't like the terminology LAPD on the other hand, Went through a series of changes to try to weed out bad apples.

They did various types of trainings and reinforcement to this day. And I talked to people in LAPD fairly regularly now. I mean, they are and engaging in a series of community based activities that can really lead to some of the changes. Now, obviously they just had a shooting. That people are upset about, but as we see these particular things unfold, there are things that police departments should do.

The first big thing is we need city councils in particular, to do an audit of their police department. They need to look at how much the police department is costing them. They also need to look at what sort of policies they can layer up, not simply body worn cameras on our implicit bias trainings, which I think matter, but broad scale transformative.

Uh, reforms to policing like mandating that law enforcement live in or around the municipality where they work thinking about housing subsidies, thinking about required mental health screenings and counseling sessions. These are the sort of things that would go a long way to not just make changes to community policing, but to also help the officers be better people and then better police officers in the law.

Right.

James Carville: [00:31:06] So one of the. Things that I hear that kind of makes some sense. If you are a police officer in San Francisco or Boston or Washington, DC, you really can't afford to live in a jurisdiction. I mean, are you a school teacher or a sanitation? Oh, like public employee. It's very hard in certain urban areas into the real issue here.

And I think that there'll be some idea of subsidized housing for really qualified people to be serving these questions. I don't know if it, does that make any sense to you?

Rashawn Ray: [00:31:46] I mean, I completely agree. It's one of my biggest. Reforms for law enforcement, which I then hope will trickle down to teachers and other government workers that you just described.

There was a report a few years ago, they showed that police officers and teachers cannot afford to live in most major metropolitan areas in the United States. You just mentioned some of them. So if we want police officers living in these communities, we're going to have to do something about it. And I think the housing subsidy does something in particular, not only should it be mandated and maybe that doesn't mean.

The 20 year veteran who already lives in a suburbs or in a rural area in his family set. But moving forward is that what that will do is a couple of things. It will lead to officers, oftentimes not feeling as though they have to work overtime. Or a secondary job because I really don't think people realize how much police officers work.

We've studied thousands of police officers. We've done interviews with hundreds of them. And I can tell you that they are working 60, 80, a hundred, 120 hours a week, trying to put food on the table, particularly as their kids get older. They're trying to save up for college. I mean, when you work that many hours, you cannot function properly.

You do not make good sense. If a housing subsidy is put in place, they are closer to work. It cuts down on their commute and it also allows them to experience the community. What that means is they send their kids to the local schools. They work out at the local gym, they go to the local grocery store and the local restaurants, and they start so view the people who they live by as a person, part of them, instead of being against them.

Al Hunt: [00:33:14] Yeah, Rayshawn. I just, I want to come

James Carville: [00:33:15] back to one or two things you

Al Hunt: [00:33:17] at Brookings, this may have been part of what John Allen, did you get a study in what was called the accelerationist, which is that the white nationalists are really trying to foment a lot of this. We talked earlier about sometimes they've infiltrated the police forces.

Uh, but, but, but this is something that has to be

James Carville: [00:33:35] publicly

Al Hunt: [00:33:36] discussed. Cause, cause it really is. I gather it.

James Carville: [00:33:39] A growing problem.

Rashawn Ray: [00:33:40] I mean, it completely is. And it's part of a broad history. You know, one of the reasons why I say bad apples come from rotten trees and policing is because we really haven't put front stages center that law enforcement in the United States, particularly in the South, but not only in the South, it was also on the East coast.

Stemmed from slave patrols and yeah, as we dealt with that, then we went into the civil war and then we had reconstruction. And what happened at that point? Well, the KKK came up and what profession did they view as what they needed to get into, to hoard power, to continue to do what they wanted to do. It was like enforcement.

We fast forward to the civil rights movement. 1950s. Um, you had the Emerald society founded in Boston, a group of Irish firefighters and police officers who viewed it as maintaining their weight, their whites, ethnic identity, even though the narrative today about their organization. And, um, it's something that they try to distance themselves from that.

And then more recently, these department of Homeland security reports, knowing that white nationalism, white supremacist organizations are Amy to get into law enforcement. This is what people have to realize. I mean, while there've been several incidents from a. Police officer in Louisiana saying that, Oh, it's a shame that more black people didn't die.

Or the police officers in Florida, including a police chief who was called going to a KKK meeting. Right? Those are oftentimes the extremes in the outliers. What I see happening or. Oftentimes white supremacists who are under the radar, who embody white nationalist notions and they infiltrate police departments.

And then they aim to roll back accountability. They oftentimes aim to roll up the power that the fraternal order of police had over police officers. And it leads to lack of accountability and that type of deleterious outcomes. Right. That we're talking about today from Jacob Blake to George Floyd, to Brianna Taylor, that I think most people really, really want to get past

Al Hunt: [00:35:28] James denied both or are certainly very pro union, uh, people, but police unions are a problem is,

Rashawn Ray: [00:35:35] I mean, unfortunately they are.

And I mean, I think unions are extremely important, but I think part of what's happened with the fraternal order of police is that they've overstepped their bounds. And it's important for people to recognize why this is police chiefs are oftentimes appointed. By whoever was elected mayor or County executive, or what have you no.

Fraternal order of police, president. Is the person who police officers themselves elect two police officers, the FOP president in particularly they've been there for several years, like in Minneapolis or in other place, oftentimes carry more weight than the police chief. And this is the thing. One thing I realized very early on with doing research with police officers and our police officers is we put the onus on them to make changes.

And that's not where the owners should be. They're going out, trying to live their lives like everybody else, trying to do their jobs. I know that even personally, with the several police officers I have in my own family, if we want to see the changes, these changes come from policy. So what we need to do is we need to deal with the law enforcement.

Bill of rights. That is a barrier. We need to deal with qualified immunity. I mean, some people say that that I don't even go far enough, but my reforms are based on the research that I've done. Like, I think we need to deal with qualified immunity in some ways, right. But we particularly need to deal with the civilian payouts and how we do that.

And we can make those changes. Oftentimes even without dealing with certain forms of qualified immunity, if the police department is on the hook for it. So, you know, the union definitely has a role to play, but policymakers and voters can make those changes if they want to

Al Hunt: [00:37:11] ratio. And this was why you had your arm, but any thoughts when Donald Trump went to Kenosha yesterday?

Rashawn Ray: [00:37:17] Yeah, I mean, I had a series of thoughts. My first thought was that, uh, Clearly, he wasn't going to talk to the family and offering any sort of condolences. Instead he doubled down on the 17 year old who actually shot and killed people. Um, I find it interesting in these narratives that as people are defending the 17 year old, that there are some comparisons, people have made there to all point out.

One is that this man is 17 years old and Trayvon Martin was 17 years old, which actually Trayvon Martin's. Killing murder. As I like to call it started the black lives matter movement with three black women said the statement black lives matter. And we look at the juxtaposition in the way the 17 year old in Kenosha was framed versus Trayvon Martin.

I think the other thing that we can highlight is not only that, but the way when we look at Kenosha. For Donald Trump's response to this is all about law and order. It's all about Amy to hold up. The 17 year old is something that we need do, and that's highly, highly problematic in this climate. And really what Trump is aiming to do is this he's aiming to talk to a few groups of people.

First, he's aiming to talk to white suburban women, and the RNC was all about that. He's aiming to show them, look, I can't protect you. I will also. Um, be sure that I maintain your neighborhood and guess what? I'm not racist. Cause I had Herschel Walker and all these other people come up and tell you that.

So, um, it's okay to vote for me. The second thing is he speaking to the 11% of white voters who a lot of them are in the Midwest, but not all who voted for Obama in 2012 and then voted for Trump in 2016. And then finally, he's talking to black men, he's saying, look. That you know, you all don't want these things in your neighborhood either because we have to be very realistic that one out of six college educated black men voted for Trump in 2016.

So we put all this together and he's throwing things at a dartboard, essentially trying to see what sticks that's part of what Trump does, but he's highly effective. And people need to actually see through this and see whether or not he's fully supportive of black lives like he is for other lives or whether or not he has a different agenda.

James Carville: [00:39:24] Yeah. But it's just something that. Insufficient. I pointed out one of the great success stories of modern America has been the impression drop in violent crime. I mean, it was not predicted at all. And people were still confined to scratch their head a little bit as to how it happened. And I think a lot of this is driven a lot by Trump.

He definitely sits at the top and I think COBIT has just put people on edge. Like you've never seen before and just is just a breeding ground for this conflict that we stay in. Does that theory have any validity in your mind? It's a combination of those two things. Really not just reversed a I've been pressured trend.

We will track, we were owned for awhile and. Than the United States.

Rashawn Ray: [00:40:18] I mean, I think without a doubt, you know what I mean? We are dealing with two pandemics, not only COVID-19, but systemic racism and more so a racial awakening to the impact of systemic racism, you know, it's, it's not, um, It's not difficult to make the connections that black people and Latinos are about to three times more likely to die from COVID and black people are two to three times, and we're likely to be killed by the police for people living in low income neighborhoods.

They see how both of those collide on their lives when it comes to violent crime. Obviously since the nineties, even before the crime bill, I mean, bill Gauston and I, we wrote a piece recently on did the 1994 crime bill cause mass incarceration. And the way we, we frame it as that, not exactly, but it did inflame it.

And you know, the 1986 bill under Reagan that created disparities between crack. In cocaine is really what led to increased in arrest and that sort of thing, even though the crime bill definitely expanded mass incarceration by providing funding for police officers, for prisons and the like, but that drug bill created it where you could have 500 grams of cocaine and it only equates to one gram.

Of crack in terms of sentencing. And when we look at violent crime, to me, that's really simple right now, not only are we dealing with civil unrest and people are seeing that, but as you all know, when we look at these cities from Portland, Seattle to Kenosha, a lot of this is concentrated in a small town geographic area.

And look, we don't want to see any businesses or any body being damaged or hurt. In this moment, but we do have to put that in context, the increase in crime, it's also related to economic anchors around the fact that it's a large percentage of Americans who are unemployed due to COVID-19. People are on edge.

They can't operate in the same way that they do. I mean, I talk to a lot of friends who are unemployed or underemployed worried about their job. People are remote learning. Essentially. We quote unquote homeschooling, their kids, people are stressed out and a person like Donald Trump. Is not helping in this moment because even though he might be good on the economy, he's not good at dealing with some of these other issues in particular.

One very important thing to note is that if he had, have just not aimed to remove everything that Obama did, we, I don't think we'd be in a situation. I mean, Obama created the pandemic response unit in the white house that did a great job of locking down Ebola after they learned from H one N one only two people in America died from Ebola.

And if that. Group was still in place. We would not see COVID-19 hitting Americans. Like it is

Al Hunt: [00:42:56] Rayshawn Ray. Uh, you have held up the honor of Brookings and the university of Maryland. Um, more than anybody could expect your

James Carville: [00:43:04] terrific

Al Hunt: [00:43:04] guests. And please keep this stuff up and I hope we can stay in touch.

James Carville: [00:43:08] Wait, want to see, are you a prompt? Just out of curiosity,

Rashawn Ray: [00:43:11] mid middle Tennessee. I went to college in Memphis, but I'm from Murfreesboro. Middle Tennessee grew up in Atlanta, but my mother and grandmother are huge fans. I would be remiss if I didn't say that, but, uh, yeah, I'm a Tennessee native Tennessee born and bred my wife as well.

And. You know, I've, we've lived in all four regions of the country, but Tennessee is definitely home.

James Carville: [00:43:29] We'll give you than your grandmother, big heart for me.

Rashawn Ray: [00:43:33] Okay. I will. Thank you.

Al Hunt: [00:43:45] Hey James two good guests, two interesting perspectives. Uh, I think it's, um, you know, it's gives light to a lot of what Trump has said. Uh, there's so much good. A lot of the temper said I've got a couple different, uh, outrageous on Trump. I could fill an entire 24 seven on that, but two things that just jumped out on me, the worst was the story that he had stopped going to Dover air force base in Delaware to greet the returning caskets of slain soldiers and comfort their families because he was offended by what one father.

A of a, of a, of feast, a soldier said to him, a couple of you, couple years offended, offended that man and lost his boy. And we're worried about the sensitivities of this narcissist. I mean, that just,

James Carville: [00:44:35] it

Al Hunt: [00:44:35] makes your, it makes your blood

James Carville: [00:44:37] curl. It's so offensive.

Al Hunt: [00:44:39] And the second thing is that, um, he went and made a secret trip,

James Carville: [00:44:45] um,

Al Hunt: [00:44:46] sometime ago.

Great reporter of the New York times reports that Mike Mike Pence was told to be on standby. So it clearly was not something routine. Somebody put out an irresponsible blog that he may have had a stroke to the white house, be able to deny. We had a stroke, but they won't tell us what happened. So every time, and he mentioned Biden's health age or anything else, every story, every report, every reference ought to have an obligatory follow.

The Trump went for some kind of procedure and he won't tell us what it was. Tell us what it was please.

James Carville: [00:45:19] Well, first of all, on the Dover thing, I'm not sure a lot of the parents that he followed, he throws warning. It just came out. Biden's is actually beating Trump among active duty military. It's hard to underestimate how profound that is.

That is generally not the case. So, Oh, carpal bone spurs. They are. You know, maybe that's a good reason he days because maybe a lot of these people give them so much warning there, but I would consider that possibility I really would.

Al Hunt: [00:45:54] But Democrats went there. James, when, when most of those veterans were voting Republican, I mean, I think this

James Carville: [00:46:00] is just,

Al Hunt: [00:46:01] I mean, this is just, this

James Carville: [00:46:02] is, this is part of the role of a commander.

I get, if we expect anything out here, I don't, I expect nothing out of the sky pet initiative. And I'm sure he doesn't even respect Fairmont or Marines or sailors, whoever they are. I just have, I have, I don't have any EV every expectation I have is through the worst that you can imagine. I've got to tell you, all of my expectations are being met by what you just pointed out.

That there's a couple of things that I think Kathy. Young teens on the psycho arc media that is really worth a read and Todd Gitlin, who is a big deal. He's like the head of the Columbia journalism outfit. The piece with former mayor, Madison, Wisconsin, I think has been USA today. I would recommend both of them.

I think they're very insightful.

Al Hunt: [00:47:05] Who did the AARC patient,

James Carville: [00:47:07] a woman by the name of Kathy young, who is a kind of a never Trumper. But it's been taken. I think it's worth a read by people who listen to the show. And a lot of it has to do with my question earlier about the facts that come out, but on the first take, you know, we generally find out more if we don't call it.

And I'm just not very favorable to Trump at all. Not at all, but. It's you know, uh, Chris Murphy put out a treatment to cry, you know, police brutality and the murder people in the crowd construction of property literally had to take it down and a half hour he got so definitely criticize it. And it'd be like, you should, you'd be cried.

Somebody that murdered five people, somebody murdered one person. You're not allowed to conflate the two. I think it's a, we're making a mistake and I think Biden has done a good job of saying, yeah, we shouldn't be shooting people and we shouldn't be looting people. They're not contradictory thoughts, but somehow or another, if people get the scent to escalate as party is.

But we'll win, but it's not going to help. I don't know. I agree

Al Hunt: [00:48:39] if Jacob Blake's mother can say that. Why can't Democrats say that

James Carville: [00:48:46] back to the divide we talked about with Tom and I really give Biden a lot of credit. And he's been wise in this. And I think that we can, I think what we can expect out of Joe Biden, maybe we can't expect, you know, some of the things that Democrats had tossed him to Obama and Clinton, you know, once in a generation talent.

But I think what we appreciate about Biden is his wisdom. And hopefully I think that will. Terry will do well, Gord, polar, I hope he's able to maintain

Al Hunt: [00:49:25] that well, and his decency, uh, which is, uh, I think there's never a time. Uh, you know, I, I told a friend the other day, what, what I hope he can be as Jerry Ford was some big accomplishments, uh, and decency after what we've been through is terribly important.

Then I think he brings that, uh, you know, And significant dimensions. One thing I mentioned is we're kind of lamb, James.

James Carville: [00:49:52] I think this has been a good week for Joe Biden. I think you're absolutely

Al Hunt: [00:49:54] right. He did very well in that

James Carville: [00:49:56] speech. He really

Al Hunt: [00:49:57] said it exactly the way it should be, should have been said, he's responding to Trump correctly.

I, every week Trump will try to create some diversion. This week, it was a natural one because of Kenosha in place, but there'll be another one next week. It may be more on some may be more racial he'll race bait every week. It may be red shine and others, and you got to respond to him, but I don't want him to be able to set the agenda every week.

And I do think this was a

James Carville: [00:50:24] good week,

Al Hunt: [00:50:24] but as I said, Congressman was also a week where there was no discussion at all. I don't care or COVID gene. And, you know, we can't do that many weeks.

James Carville: [00:50:35] I do, but the thing is, is that whether they crush it or not, it's still there. And of course, he's going to take every bit and I'm afraid we're going to have more there.

A lot of people that want more to happen. And I might add on both sides. All right. There's some people on the far left clearly. It's not even some people, not even necessarily to just on the floor. Right. And you know, you have all of these tensions that are on top of it and, you know, he needs to, you know, he's responded to this.

Well, he needs to continue to respond. You know, all the other problems haven't gone up. I mean, they've gotten even worse. I mean, the connection between COBIT and healthcare, you know, the diabetes still exist. All of the other problems that people have, right. Oh really? Just the cost of prescription drugs is not known now how many more of these events we have?

I don't know, but it's going to be a trick book by Bob in his campaign.

Going to be able to get people to raise his hand and said, look, I just want you to know I haven't got a bite to eat and that's going to take some discipline and some skill. And that hopefully it will.

Al Hunt: [00:52:11] Uh, alright, well, listen, this has been S has been a really interesting show. Uh, it's been a really interesting week.

And I want to thank everybody out there, listening. Uh, and again, uh, please pass the word on to all of your friends and family and just subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Give us a good review. If you can be safe out there and James we'll be back next week.