Professor David Harris on Essential Police Reforms

Yet another death of an African American man at the hand's of the police has lead to demonstrations across United States and around the world. People are yet again demanding greater accountability, transparency and equality in treatment from their peace officers. But what will it really take to dramatically change how men and women in uniform interact with the public,  especially minorities? David Harris, the University of Pittsburgh School of Law's Sally Ann Semenko Endowed Chair, tries to answer some of the questions about the nature of this issue and suggest how policing systems can be changed at all levels of government. Plus, Al and James touch base on Trump's photo op and Senate election prospects.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Al Hunt: Hello and welcome to 2020 politics war room with James Carville. I'm Al hunt in Washington. We're proud partners with the sign Institute at American university, and can't wait to get back there. Both James and I are at home now. He's in Mississippi. We have a great guest this week, but first don't forget to subscribe.

[00:00:24] The 2020 politics where I'm on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcast. David Harris is a professor of law at the university of Pittsburgh, where he teaches criminal law and evidence. He specializes in police conduct, search and seizure law, and the intersection of race and criminal justice.

[00:00:44] He's the author of four books on policing, his new book, a city divided, race, fear, and law. And police confrontations publish this year and available on Amazon and everywhere else. He's also the host of a criminal injustice [00:01:00] podcast. David, we are so fortunate to have you on there is nobody better to talk to about the awful incidents that have occurred this past week.

[00:01:09] Thank you for being less, but let me just start there. The Minneapolis, a Floyd tragedy. Why does this keep recurring, 

[00:01:17] David Harris: Glad to be with you gentlemen, for a very sobering topic. And the reason that it keeps occurring is that. We have unresolved questions within policing and especially at the intersection of race and criminal justice, you know, it's been many, many years, decades since the unrest in the middle of the 1960s that caused the formation of the Kerner commission.

[00:01:46] Um, and if you go back to that report, Uh, you will see that lots of those disturbances started with an incident of a police officer, uh, abusing beating, or [00:02:00] hurting a black person. Uh, this isn't new, it goes back and we have failed to come to grips with some of the very basic problems in policing. Uh, they involve the use of force.

[00:02:15] Disproportionately against African Americans and the use of force when it is frankly not necessary. This comes about, as I said, in my book, a city divided because we have stark racial differences in our society that we have not fully addressed and the police aren't drawn from our society. And then we give them very broad powers to use force.

[00:02:39] And in many instances we don't train them properly. And we do not hold them accountable for when things go wrong. That is the root cause of so much police misconduct. And it's why it keeps happening. We don't hold ourselves, our organizations or our officers accountable. For the [00:03:00] damage that's caused. 

[00:03:01] Al Hunt: Well, you know, every time something like this happens, I'm thinking of Michael Brown and other incidents.

[00:03:07] Before that we say, all right, now, police are going to wear body cameras. And now we're going to have more sensitivity training, and now we're going to work more. And, uh, is it just all cosmetic or have some as some progress been made in some places and, and what more needs to be done on the critical accountability question you just raised?

[00:03:29] David Harris: Well, some progress has been made. I mean, it's easy for me to say as a middle aged white man and things are better. I don't face this kind of thing that people of color do, but we do have better police departments, better police training, and by and large, better officers than we did say 20 or 30 years ago.

[00:03:49] Um, but not enough has been done. Body cameras. I have turned out to be a real mixed bag, helpful in many instances, um, uh, [00:04:00] they do put certain facts beyond dispute, but not only what can be seen on the camera itself in front of the lens. Um, better training is certainly helpful. Better policies are helpful, but this really lies at the bottom, uh, on police culture, the culture within police departments and culture and organizations is devilishly.

[00:04:21] Hard to change. You really have to have leadership that will insist on it. And then when things violate the rules that you put in place, you must hold people accountable. I hate to sound like a broken record out, but it really comes back to holding people. Holding their feet to the fire and up and down the entire organization, whether it's the chief or the newest patrol person, when things go wrong, you have to go back.

[00:04:47] Maybe you counsel them, maybe a discipline, and maybe it's just, they get into another line of work. And too often, law enforcement instead has circled the wagons, protected their own. They've refused to [00:05:00] call out even the worst police officers within organizations. And they. Paint the entire organization, uh, with their misconduct that is tolerated and the public sees this, they know it's there.

[00:05:11] Al Hunt: Let me, let me try one more and then turn it over to James. Is there any, are there any couple departments, any 

[00:05:17] James Carville: couple cities that you'd say, boy, 

[00:05:19] Al Hunt: that's a place to look to. They really are making it work better. And how does Minneapolis rank, uh, and any ranking of a good and bad? 

[00:05:27] David Harris: Well, I would point the two that have made.

[00:05:29] A real change in great strides. Uh, you can probably remember along with me, uh, the LAPD of the era of the Rodney King incident, and even after that, uh, the Rampart scandals, I mean, things didn't stop being awful there with the Rodney King incident. He continued. But a name that you all recognize, bill brat.

[00:05:51] He was brought in to be the chief, uh, in Los Angeles. Lot of people told them don't take the job. It's a suicide mission, [00:06:00] but he went in there with a completely different point of view. So we're going to transform this. Apartment. And he met with the people who most often sued the department, um, and with his, with allies within it who wanted to be better.

[00:06:12] And today you have a markedly different, not flawless, but much different department. And those changes and changes in culture have outlasted Bratton's tenure. And now another chief's tenure too. And they seem pretty solid. The other example I would give you would be Camden, New Jersey place, where the police.

[00:06:30] Problems were really intractable. And that was a small enough department. You couldn't do this in LA or New York, but they just went in and shut it down and started a brand new department from scratch out of officers from their County. And they have a good police department. Now it is one of the best, uh, small to medium size.

[00:06:50] Departments in the country. How did Minneapolis rank in there? Well, they've made some progress, uh, but as those who were doing actual training [00:07:00] by outsiders in Minneapolis will tell you, they had obviously not gotten far enough. And you still had officers within the ranks who had not been held accountable for misconduct.

[00:07:10] There had still been incidents, uh, in which not enough was done. And you see the results. 

[00:07:16] James Carville: So profit. Let me tell you, as I see the culture problem, Bob Crow, K R O L L. They had of the fraternal order of FOP in Minneapolis, 800 officers. All right. Bob Crow appears at Trump rallies. I think if you look at the Wikipedia, it's generous to say he's had multiple incidences of.

[00:07:45] Excessive force, but there's a word to describe Bob Crow and that word is elected. All right. The police officers themselves collectively decided this is who they want to [00:08:00] represent them. I think that's a frightful expression of the culture in the Minneapolis police department. 

[00:08:08] David Harris: Uh, you know, I think you're making a really, really important point.

[00:08:13] Um, I, um, I w I get asked about police unions a lot, and mr. Crowell is with the police union. He's the leader of the police union up there. Um, we have an FOP unit here in Pittsburgh where I live it's FOP lodge, number one, which tells you something about them. Um, and in many places, Uh, unions have taken the position that they will protect even their worst officers.

[00:08:44] Uh, and there is, uh, uh, uh, your real big problem with accountability and misconduct. Uh, they take off in. Uh, uh, in some FOP law is very extreme positions. Um, I don't know about [00:09:00] anybody here in Pittsburgh appearing at a Trump rally. Um, but I do know that the union is seen by Pittsburgh residents where I live as controlling the police department.

[00:09:12] Uh, I'm not against unions. I am not against unions. I think fighting for good wages and working conditions is the right of every American. And we should see more of it. But what I am against are unions that protect the worst people in their ranks who have to have contact with the public. And that's what I think goes on there.

[00:09:34] You also have some unions like this one up in Minneapolis, where there was a lot of Ravel rousing around. Um, very negative stereotypes of the public. I mean, you, you can just tell that they don't respect the people they serve when these union people are talking. I don't mean every member of the union. I mean, people like mr.

[00:09:55] Crowell and I've seen that time. And again, that sends the message to people. [00:10:00] We care about us. It's us against you. Until these things change, James, we're going to have a big problem. Part of the problem here is that big cities have given away the disciplinary process in whole or in part to the unions by putting mandatory arbitration in that guarantees for a lot of them.

[00:10:21] Bad police officers that they can get fired and get their jobs back. Um, this has got to change these collective bargaining and grievance that protect bad officers are no good for the public. And they're no good for all the good officers either. 

[00:10:37] James Carville: Well, look and start by electing, got a people to represent them.

[00:10:44] But what, what happened here? I think it has been a 20% spike in public relations with preference too. Police violence toward minorities. And the thing that discharged Florida thing did is it, [00:11:00] I think it really affected whites because whites were like, no, somebody gives studies. It obviously knows what's going on.

[00:11:06] But a lot of people were, yeah, I know it's happening. It's terrible. But, you know, just kind of the way the world is,  when you actually saw it, you can almost peep people having this collective like, Oh shit. I didn't know it was like this. And, you know, and it, it, it really, it really affected, I think minority saw it and says, well, yeah, what's new here.

[00:11:39] And you had an entirely different reaction and not just from, you know, Uber liberal people, but I mean, even to the point where you had rush Limbaugh gone, you know, Charlemagne. 

[00:11:52] David Harris: Yeah. I think I, I could not agree more with you, James. I mean, something about seeing a recording of a human being [00:12:00] killed right in front of you, as people called out, help him.

[00:12:04] Get off of his neck, he can't breathe. And he called out for his own life. Something about seeing that I think has reached people in ways that it would not, if there was just a report on the television or, or a, or a bulletin on the radio, um, it, it was impossible to turn away from, unless you just. Insisted on burying your head in the sand.

[00:12:30] You could not say that this was right. And one of the signs of that is you saw no law enforcement organizations except maybe mr. Crow, no head of a police department or police organization, professional organization coming out and saying, let's just wait here that this officer was just doing the right thing.

[00:12:48] It doesn't look good. I mean, that's the kind of thing we would hear sometimes. And you know that, but we didn't hear that. And I think that's the reason it reached people at that level. 

[00:12:58] James Carville: I mean, it's, it's really, [00:13:00] it's really had a, a real effect on him, public opinion and how long it lasts. Probably nothing.

[00:13:06] If Biden called Yan and he was president of Lac and he said, look, prof, give me three things. I know we got to change. That economic inequality. And I know I got to do that, but what are three, what are three things I can do as president to make this better in the immediate term? What would you tell him?

[00:13:29] David Harris: Well, I would, I would tell him that there are a lot of police leaders, a lot of chiefs, a lot of leadership in police departments around the country that know what needs to be done and want to do it, but they've been kind of hamstrung. So I would tell him first to bring those people into the white house and have a large gathering and say, we're going to do better.

[00:13:53] Uh, we, these people in back of me, they want to do better and here are the things they're going to do. So you start with a, [00:14:00] with a gathering that will convene and convene again, that is all targeted at this. And the, the playbook is there. This was president Obama's 21st century policing task force. So we know what needs to be done.

[00:14:13] We got to move from, uh, the warrior style policing that has been dominant in American police departments for the last 20, 25 years. The idea that it's a war out there and the police are out defending a us in a war or an insurgency that has got to go. That has got to be replaced by a style of policing and a method of policing that is all about guarding the public piece and establishing partnerships.

[00:14:38] We know how to do that. And the federal government can support it with money, with grants, with all kinds of initiatives. Number two, you got to put the mechanics in place for an even more robust effort to change police departments that can't, or won't change through federal. Legal [00:15:00] action. We saw pretty good effort under the Obama administration's civil rights division.

[00:15:04] It's gotta be more intense. There's got to be more of it. Even at any one time, that kind of effort never reached more than 15 or 20 of the worst police departments. Uh, it's gotta be something where we go all out. Number three, he would have to pledge himself to supporting changes in state law. On the use of force because use of force is governed for the most part by state law, there was a big Supreme court decision that lays down the basic rules, but don't look for any changes there.

[00:15:36] Um, States though can do better for their citizens. We saw California pass a bill like that. Um, and uh, other States could do it too. And he should voice his support for that very. Thing. Uh, and number four, you only gave me three, but I'm going to take a fourth one, number four. He has to come out and say, we're going to build a federal [00:16:00] infrastructure for police accountability.

[00:16:02] This will be structures that the police department in any city or town can take off the shelf, put in place and use courtesy of the federal government. And it will be national. Databases that track police misconduct, police complaints and police decertification. So we can get rid of the worst officers, 

[00:16:24] Al Hunt: Davey, you bring up state law.

[00:16:26] Cause I was going to ask you, why is it so hard to convict cops and these sort of incidents? I mean, I, I cannot believe they can't get a conviction in Minneapolis. You couldn't ask for more proof, but I, I think probably correctly, the charge they brought was third degree. Uh, because, uh, it's almost impossible to prove intent, but generally in a lot of other places, I think the vast majority of cases that go to trial, the police officer is acquitted.

[00:16:53] David Harris: Well, it's true out. And, and I think people are really mystified by that. Um, let me break it [00:17:00] down. Under state law, you got that Supreme court decision that I mentioned to deal with. Uh, you have a lot of prosecutors reluctant to bring charges against police because they work hand in glove with those departments.

[00:17:13] Uh, and then you have the fundamentals of the law and our culture. What I mean by that is that law. That Supreme court case called Graham versus Connor from the eighties basically says you have to view the police officer's actions, not with hindsight, not through your civilian eyes, but through the eyes of an objectively reasonable police officer and said the Supreme court, you've got to look at it.

[00:17:39] Knowing that police officers are often in dangerous situations and happens. To make split second decisions. Now, if that's the law, if that's what you're going to hold them to, um, it's going to be difficult under the best circumstances to convict a police officer. When you add to that, the fact that most civilians, not [00:18:00] all.

[00:18:00] Uh, and it may become less common, but most civilians give police officers the benefit of the doubt when they're in court. Um, and look for reasons to quit. And you add the fear that most people feel of black men and the social science on this. Devastating when you read it. Um, they're looking for excuses oftentimes to equip police officers.

[00:18:23] Cosmin, you know, when the guy who got shot is a scary black man, I mean, that's why these things go wrong. And that's why acquittals are so common. I mean, think of that case in South Carolina, Walter Scott, the man is running away. He's running away. He's, you know, he's running as fast as he can opposite direction, nothing in his hands.

[00:18:44] And that officer takes a stance and shoots him in the back. And yet you had a South Carolina jury would not convict. He only went to prison because he was given the kind of sweetheart plea deal by the feds. So these are always tough [00:19:00] cases to get convictions on. That's why we need to change that use of force law at the state level that could have an impact.

[00:19:07] Al Hunt: Well, you know, I know that most police officers are, are really law, abiding, good citizens. We all need them. They protect us all. But Robert of Ryan, the president's national security advisor, I have no idea why he's talking about this says, Hey, there's just a few bad apples. Uh, 

[00:19:24] David Harris: Is it that easy? No, it's not.

[00:19:26] And that bad Apple thing that is, that is really unhelpful just to put it as mildly as I can. It's not a question of a few bad apples. That's what we've heard for years. It's a question of, if you'd let me twist the metaphor a little bit. Bad Apple barrels. Okay. So yes, you might have some officers who are not good and most of the others are, but it's the culture and the organization that allows those people to set the tone for the entire group that allows them to set a very low standard of conduct, [00:20:00] uh, when they misbehave and they're not disciplined, they're not fired.

[00:20:04] Um, uh, and everybody within the department knows who those officers are. I've never been. Then in a department to do training or anything else where everybody wasn't completely aware of who that four or five, 10% was. And yet we don't do anything about them. So it's not bad apples. It's the bad Apple barrel that doesn't take care of these problems.

[00:20:26] And that ultimately hurts not just the department itself, of course, but it hurts the public. And then every once in a while, one of those people ends up creating a real catastrophe like George Floyd's death, 

[00:20:38] James Carville: You know, I just had to start these dirty Harry movies, where the rogue cop was the hero and the police chief was the buffoon and he didn't pay attention to it.

[00:20:51] And I think that they have had some effect on culture and the way that the white public [00:21:00] looks at some of 

[00:21:00] David Harris: This. I agree with you, James. I mean, it does all the way. It goes all the way back to dirty Harry, doesn't it, it's the it's that sort of social image as the, you know, the police are supposed to protect us.

[00:21:13] And they're a bunch of ineffectual people who do things like follow the law and they do things like cut breaks to defendants because their of us have something called the constitution. We don't need that. We need police who will stand up and be brutal when necessary. That's it. Terrible terrible set of messages, but sadly it appeals to a certain group of people.

[00:21:34] And always has, we have to insist on our values, uh, as we go into w w whether we're talking about policing in the real world, or we're just talking about our country, generally, we must insist that real American values of law. Equality and justice apply to everybody. And, you know, as, as a [00:22:00] great Sage said, a long time ago, if a 10 or a hundred guilty people have to go free, uh, in order that the innocent shall be protected.

[00:22:08] That's okay. That's okay. We have to insist that we're going to live as what our constitution. Says about us and who we aspire to be dirty. Harry is a cartoon of some of the worst attitudes that are out there. Don't get me wrong. I mean, I understand the feel of the movie, but this shouldn't be real life 

[00:22:31] James Carville: Who wants, you know, yet heroic rogue cop, the buffoon mayor, you know, good Socratic police, chief, you know, sits at his desk and doesn't know what it's like out there.

[00:22:43] Yeah. It's entertaining. But it just over and over, people develop this affection for, you know, the road cop in the locker room. 

[00:22:52] Al Hunt: Uh, David, you have done Seminole work on racial profiling. Uh, two questions. How big, how [00:23:00] important is that in this whole police community race issue? And has it gotten any better?

[00:23:07] David Harris: Um, it is important. I would argue Al because, uh, it is one of the tactics that has rankled and has touched so many, uh, African Americans and other people of color. Uh, there's no more common. Experience in the United States, no more ubiquitous experience than driving in a vehicle. And there is no more common setting for police contact.

[00:23:32] It is the most common setting, uh, according to the data, uh, that people have in which they might have contact with police. And when certain people get picked out over and over and over, and, you know, for bologna stuff, like, you know, your tail lights out, you don't have your sticker. You went two minutes to a miles an hour over the speed limit.

[00:23:54] I mean, they know what that's about. It's not, it's not a surprise to them cause it keeps [00:24:00] happening to them. Um, profiling can show up in other contexts too, such as stop and frisk. I mean, there's nothing illegal about stopping. Cars for traffic offenses and there's nothing illegal about stop and frisk itself.

[00:24:13] What what's, what, what is wrong with these things is when they're used with a racial overlay, number one is I've argued in my book about profiling profiles and injustice. It actually doesn't help you catch bad guys. It makes your results worse. So if you want it to be the most effective cop, you would not.

[00:24:31] Do this, but more importantly, it just leaves a Mark on people. People understand, even in these low level, uh, incidents that happened to them, uh, that the law doesn't apply to them the same way that applies to everybody else that police force is not there for them. It's there to do things. To them, it's there to control them.

[00:24:48] Uh, and it's terribly, terribly damaging. Uh, and of course, little things like that can add up, you can get a suspended license, then you can't get to work and it has real [00:25:00] consequences. Is it getting better? I do think it's better than it was. You know, 25 years ago when I began laboring in that particular vineyard, um, I don't think it's gone by any means.

[00:25:10] Uh, but we have much more of a consciousness among police. And of course in public that this isn't right and it's gotta be tamed. And most importantly, we've got to be collecting data on this because the data tells the tale, uh, when you get the data, you can see if this is a problem with one officer, an entire department.

[00:25:29] And then of course, you've got to do something 

[00:25:30] James Carville: About it. Well, 

[00:25:31] Al Hunt: David, I must tell you in a week, in a very emotional week, uh, tragedy, uh, the specific the country first in Minneapolis, and then, uh, with some of these. Demonstrations. Most of which the overwhelming majority, I think are very, very heartfelt. I just hope that a new administration and police chiefs all over America will listen to David Harris because you have really brought light and a very difficult time.

[00:25:58] James and I are very [00:26:00] appreciative of your time. 

[00:26:01] James Carville: Excellent.

[00:26:13] Al Hunt: well, I learned a lot from that and 

[00:26:16] James Carville: it really did. 

[00:26:16] Al Hunt: I mean, made me more than I read the papers the last couple of days combined. I mean, it's just a, you know, what needs to, what the problem is, what needs to be done, uh, all the way to, I wish if it weren't for the pandemic, I'd go up to Camden, New Jersey tomorrow.

[00:26:30] Which I know I grew up near camp. It's a really, really home a Jersey or walk really impoverished town. And the fact that they've done so well. And there was that, that sheriff out in Geneva County, Michigan, who the protesters came to the police station and he came outside and he threw his guns, uh, to the side.

[00:26:51] And he said, here, I'm marching with you. No more police officers like that, as opposed to the guy in Minneapolis. Uh, we'd be making progress. 

[00:26:59] James Carville: Yeah. Again, just make the distressing point that a guy was elected. The police chief was appointed and he was elected because I hate to say this, but it was probably the manifestation of the culture.

[00:27:16] Al Hunt: I'm afraid. You're right. And it has to change. Let's turn to let's turn to politics. If we can. Something that we have talked about from time to time, uh, Donald Trump, uh, this week walks out of the white house, surrounded by security as always marshes across Lafayette park, who the theirs is filled with demonstrators who are the direction of the attorney, general police have scattered using tear gas on some.

[00:27:41] Trump walks all on for the camera shot for awhile. I'll uh, Duke Wayne. Uh, and then he has his posse behind him. They go up to this church, which has been shut down a star church st. John's, uh, been shut down because of a fire the night before. And he summons all the sycophants that come [00:28:00] up and he holds up a Bible.

[00:28:02] You have a range, probably a lot of photo shots. And your day, 

[00:28:05] James Carville: how does this one rate? Well, first of all, The only thing that's surprising is that we would be surprised at anything he does. Right. Right. Okay. And of course he holds up the Bible, which you it's backwards everything about it. And you got these preaches and these Republicans trying to justify this.

[00:28:30] I mean, that's the only Downy thing that is marginally entertaining is to watch. The painful justifications that Republicans go through for Trump behavior. It's, it's becoming a bit almost entertaining. It really is. 

[00:28:49] Al Hunt: I agree. I thought I, you know, we have from time to time said, all right, this is it. This one is the worst I've ever seen since he's been president.

[00:28:58] Uh, and there were so many [00:29:00] awful sidebars to this. One of which the Washington post capturing a story on Wednesday morning. Apparently a lot of this was the idea of his daughter Ivanka and she's marching with him across. There are a lot of protesters out there, terrible things have happened to America.

[00:29:14] There's great trauma and she's marching across. Carrying her designer handbag and wearing pearls. Uh, and I just, she and Jared Cushner, uh, have got to be the model we've criticized white house relatives before they have got to be the model, um, of nepotistic misfits. Uh, they have, they really are as bad as it gets, 

[00:29:36] James Carville: but we should not be surprised.

[00:29:39] Al Hunt: Well, we you're, you're absolutely right. But, but you know, the other thing that he counts on, I think James is that we're not surprised, so we pass over it. Uh, not that we, uh, not that we, uh, uh, don't condemn it. We do, but then we move on. You can't remember. I mean, I just noticed this way, several television reports perfectly fine reports.

[00:30:00] [00:30:00] We were talking about Joe Biden and say, well, Joe, by now is talking about race. This is in the context of what he said last week when he misspoke to a radio. A host and said that if, you know, if you vote Republican, you ain't black. I don't know. I wasn't the smartest thing in the world to say, but I wasn't, it wasn't a really big FOFA compared to what Trump does every day, but he does it so much that it all gets lost.

[00:30:20] It's what somebody years ago called future shock. And I guess that's why he gets away with some of it. 

[00:30:25] James Carville: You know what? JC Watchers daddy said he was a Baptist preacher in Oklahoma. Yeah. He said a black person vote for a Republican is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders. And I just, that's what he said.

[00:30:41] You can look it up. Yeah. And the reason you laugh, because there's so much truth today. But one thing that I hope, I hope that this really motivates. Nonwhite under 35 in the swing States to vote. [00:31:00] I, I, you know, I hope that there's a, a reaction and, and that is a group of people that if they got politically motivated, they could make a real difference because their participation rates have tended to be very low.

[00:31:17] Yeah. To the extent that you can, these are some really valuable democratic voters. 

[00:31:22] Al Hunt: Yeah. I agree. You mentioned you cited earlier. Some of the right-wing evangelicals who aren't offended by anything that Trump does and praised him, but I think on the other hand, there were some religious leaders who really Rose to the occasion.

[00:31:36] I thought the Episcopal Bishop really, really, uh, put the wood to him. I suppose people aren't surprised. So as a reputation, as a very liberal denomination, but the arch Bishop of Washington, the Catholic Archbishop of Washington was just outraged that he used a, uh, a church venue for political purposes and really let him have it.

[00:31:57] And moreover, James, the head of the Southern Baptist [00:32:00] convention and Russell Moore. Who is one of the really honest evangelical conservatives just said that the use of the Bible is a prop is outrageous. There are some, there are some really, really admirable people who aren't tolerating this, these, these kind of gambits 

[00:32:16] James Carville: they are.

[00:32:16] And, you know, but you look at at the, some that do, and I think who, who too. Archbishop Gregory was gone afterwards, the Knights of Columbus, which is run by, uh, Jesse Helms acolyte. So if you can imagine the view of the Knights of Columbus towards certain demographic, we'll leave it at that. 

[00:32:39] Al Hunt: You know, I mentioned by an earlier James, he, uh, had a number of interviews this week, uh, and he gave a speech in Philadelphia.

[00:32:47] Uh, my impression and watching some of those interviews and in Washington, the speech, it was one of the better weeks he's ever had. He really, really looked good. He was measured, uh, while at the same time, uh, being tough on [00:33:00] Trump, uh, but also trying to call on Americans to unify on these difficulty. At times I thought it was really a, I hate this expression.

[00:33:08] It was the presidential type speech. 

[00:33:10] James Carville: I think it, I agree it weirdly enough. I don't think that Reagan Clinton or Obama could have done any better in that situation, it would was called for, was really joked by years of experience that trust that people have in him, the kind of decency about him and. It just came across.

[00:33:38] It did it. Wasn't full of soaring rhetoric and it wasn't, if not us who not now, when any of that, and I give them a lot of credit for what he did and I give him as much for what he didn't do. And he came from the heart and he didn't try too hard. And others [00:34:00] just the right tone. 

[00:34:01] Al Hunt: I think you just, you, you got to exactly right.

[00:34:04] He, um, he didn't let Trump off the hook. He really went after Trump in a very effective, and I think. Uh, very direct and very honest way, but that wasn't a whole speech, but a speech had just been how awful Trump has been, which he has been during this great trauma and how he fails us on a time when we need to unify this country, you know, that had been a political speech that would have been, you know, okay.

[00:34:28] I suppose, but he did much more than that. Uh, two thirds of the speech was exactly what you said. He's never going to engage in sewing rhetoric. That's not what Joe is. But he showed us sincerity, uh, uh, clarity of, of, of, of purpose and vision and ideals that I think really, really resonated. 

[00:34:48] James Carville: Yeah. Got it. No, 

[00:34:51] Al Hunt: that was, it was a, it was a good week for Joe Biden.

[00:34:54] Uh, there were also a number of elections. Uh, it didn't, as far as the presidential race was concerned, didn't much matter. He [00:35:00] won a number of other primaries, but, uh, they at this stage, uh, are irrelevant. He's going to be the nominee in August. Uh, there were a couple that were interesting and I suppose more than any place else, it was a couple in Iowa.

[00:35:12] One, which was good news for the Republican Steve King, the vitriolic right wing Congressman who's caused him. Such embarrassment was defeated in a primary. My guess is that Republicans were delighted and Democrats not so delighted cause they thought they could beat Steve King. In the fall and the other result in Iowa that didn't get as much attention, but it matters was the Senate democratic primary where the preferred candidate for most Democrats that are looking at that race was Theresa Greenfield.

[00:35:43] And she won a handily over a de Moines registered candidate. Doesn't have to have a write off. She's going to be a tough opponent for Joni Ernst in the fall. 

[00:35:52] James Carville: And the turnout was like Buffalo. Good. According to the reports I heard. You know? Yeah, no, [00:36:00] I was, she's no worse than 50 50. She really not. 

[00:36:04] Al Hunt: And, and, and she's not one of their top three or four pickups, uh, likely pickups.

[00:36:09] I mean, they're probably at least three or four places that are more likely for 

[00:36:14] James Carville: fo for North Carolina, Arizona to Colorado in may. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're actually, in my view, you know, over 50% democratic. Right. And I would put Montana in Iowa. Texas and Georgia, which is where we talked about Georgia last week.

[00:36:35] And I got a little bit convoluted, but it's actually possible that you would have to Senate elections in Georgia in January. It, because the produce seed to produce is, is just the way you do it. There's going to be a democratic primary of an officer, awful around for. Six districts seat [00:37:00] especial and Theresa Tomlinson.

[00:37:02] Who's the democratic mayor of Columbus are the two leading democratic candidate. They're going to have a primary this summer, and then they will vote on election day for that seat in November. But there's a libertarian candidate and in Georgia, if you don't get 50% on election day, so somebody gets 49.9.

[00:37:25] You have a runoff. And that has happened. That is possible. You're definitely going to have a runoff in the other race because that's the Kelly lawful seat though. Johnny Isaacson seat where it, Doug Collins, the probably beat Loughlin already. And then it's going to be between in that instance, can be Reverend Warnock.

[00:37:51] Or a guy named Travis. Who's a poly respected lawyer from Augusta. The top two will run off in [00:38:00] January. Both of those seats to pick up. One of them is not an unrealistic hope. I don't Shire wasn't or an expectation now, but certainly realistic to hope we could win one of those sentences. 

[00:38:19] Al Hunt: Well, this is one of those few areas where we have a slight disagreement.

[00:38:23] I think, uh, Democrats have done a really good job in recruiting. Good candidates, persuading, Steve Bullock to run Theresa Greenfield and Iowa Sara Gideon up in Maine. I think, um, I don't think there's a strong Democrat, uh, in that field. And you're right. One of those two seats at least should be one. Uh, and if Stacey Abrams hadn't decided she was too big to run for the Senate, or if it persuaded, I don't know, Sally Yates or someone else.

[00:38:48] So I hope you're right. But, um, Mark, Mark, me, dad is skeptical and Georgia. 

[00:38:53] James Carville: I mean, look, I've said hope. I didn't say expectation. You did. And, and it about away. [00:39:00] Purdue is not a great, he's got some issues to deal with. He's not the greatest incumbent you ever ran against. And you know, Doug Collins is Trump is not that popular in George.

[00:39:11] A probably if anything, below 50. 

[00:39:15] Al Hunt: Oh yeah. He's below 50 unfavorability and cause the polls show it virtually, even down there. Trump 

[00:39:25] James Carville: is the candidate would help some, but this election is going to be all about Trump. There's really not much Ellison people gonna vote out other than attitudes on Trump mean that I can vote on the minimum wage, you know?

[00:39:45] This is not what's driving this at all. Yeah. Trump is driving everything. 

[00:39:51] Al Hunt: Yeah, he is. And, uh, he will continue to, and he will continue to, because he's a man who's desperate, James. Uh, and if he, um, if he does [00:40:00] things that are untoward and normal times when he's desperate, uh, we can only imagine what he's going to do 

[00:40:05] James Carville: is that Georgia Republican Pote and Trump.

[00:40:09] Favorite built D among college white women is 12%. I think that the only people that think that the Democrats don't have a chance to in Georgia or a Democrat, the Republicans definitely think the Democrats have a chance in Georgia. You couldn't find a single Republican consultant that wouldn't tell you.

[00:40:32] Damn, man, I don't like to write. This is going. No

[00:40:43] Al Hunt: before we go, 

[00:40:44] James Carville: let's do a little bit of a back 

[00:40:45] Al Hunt: page. Uh, you're still down in Mississippi, anything interesting this week? 

[00:40:50] James Carville: Well, actually for the moment, a bit Louisiana, 

[00:40:53] Al Hunt: but new Orleans, I 

[00:40:54] James Carville: brought it back. I'm going out. It's not very far apart. [00:41:00] Interesting this week. Well, no, except for June authority. And there's a storm coming the way, the third, the third name storm.

[00:41:08] And then you have a really big storm, uh, in, in India and Mumbai coming. And the water temperatures are distressingly high everywhere. I cannot emphasize enough that this is going to be. A very challenging hurricane season in very challenging times. And if I tell you I had 

[00:41:34] David Harris: any, any hope 

[00:41:38] James Carville: that breed, having an adequate federal response, that'd be line.

[00:41:42] Al Hunt: And, and, and it depends. DEMEC is still. A threat, which likely will be my God. Can you imagine, 

[00:41:49] James Carville: can you imagine that? And then you have people hoarded into shelters 

[00:41:54] Al Hunt: where if you have to evacuate a reasonable sized city, where do you, where do you go? 

[00:41:58] James Carville: I don't know. Did I say Miami has to evacuate or Houston or new Orleans or North or Charleston?

[00:42:10] All right. Any of those, cause it could be Baltimore, but you don't know. And, but if you look at play for you have these big, big evacuations, you know, worst case scenario, Miami beach. So I'm coming up to,  be a mess in a water. Temperatures are just disgustingly high. In the, in Atlantic ocean. I mean, it, it's going to be a mess.

[00:42:42] I promise you. I, yeah.  like anybody else? Well, I hope no one gets it, but I hope we don't get it more than anybody else. We don't want it. They don't need it. 

[00:42:52] Al Hunt: Well, you're going to have to come back to the Shannon Della for awhile. 

[00:42:56] James Carville: I cannot, I'm not, I can't write out a hurricane. 

[00:43:00] [00:43:00] Al Hunt: Well, I know I don't have a lot of good news to offset that I did finish last weekend.

[00:43:05] I think you've have to Eric. Larson's great book. The splendid in the vile church. Oh yeah. I mean anyone who hadn't read it, it's just, I, James, I'd say I finished it like 504 pages and I don't want it to end. I want to keep going on five hours. Go to 1942. And I just, I read a number of Churchill biographies.

[00:43:24] But in a very, very personal way, this brought it home as well as any, uh, and my God. And the other thing I thought was when you had someone like Harry Hopkins, FDRs, closest confidant going over at Britain's time of great peril. And being able to spend three weeks with the prime minister of, uh, of great Britain and really forging and putting together, uh, the beginnings of an Alliance with Lend-Lease and others that helped save Britain.

[00:43:55] I couldn't imagine someone doing that in this white house, but that goes without saying, [00:44:00] um, the only other news I have is not great news. I guess for the first time, my life changed was the first time in my life. I was a fat cat. I made my first campaign contribution, $50 to a former student and Obama white house, a Jordan Grossman who was running for city council.

[00:44:17] God, he is a, a smart, terrific young man. I'm going to make a real difference in public policy in this country. Uh, and I, so I w I was a fat cat and he didn't quite make it, so I think I'm going to, um, Oh yeah, I'm going to retire as a, as a, as a political sugar, daddy, I think as a donor. Yeah. You'll hear from Jordan Grossman again, 

[00:44:38] James Carville: though.

[00:44:39] Put the updates in here. Alright. How was it? That was, that was a great show. 

[00:44:46] Al Hunt: It was a great show. And we had was, it was a very difficult. Uh, time, uh, we learned a lot and I really enjoyed it. I mean that in the best sense of the word, 

[00:44:58] James Carville: you know, I [00:45:00] go back that's thing at st. John's. That's gotta be even I got it.

[00:45:07] Yeah. Anybody that tries understand the depths of his rottenness, you can't imagine it or they can, 

[00:45:16] Al Hunt: Oh 

[00:45:17] David Harris: yeah. 

[00:45:19] James Carville: I mean an expression on his face. It re you know, 

[00:45:23] Al Hunt: I I'll tell ya. It just, it personified evil. It just personified evil. It was using a religious institution that had been harmed badly the night before a great church using it for political purposes, holding up the Bible, which he's probably never opened in his life.

[00:45:44] Bringing along the Semper and sycophants, uh, his daughter, uh, orchestrating, uh, much of it, uh, tear gassing, peaceful protestors. How can it get worse? But it will. 

[00:45:59] James Carville: They're real. [00:46:00] We promise you that 

[00:46:02] Al Hunt: it will get worse. All right, James, Carville you stay sneak this 

[00:46:05] James Carville: optimistic note. Um, 

[00:46:07] Al Hunt: you stay safe and I'm looking forward to talking to you.

[00:46:10] Actually, I'm looking forward to talking to you probably this afternoon. I'm looking forward to talking to you on this podcast, uh, and another week. Okay. 

[00:46:17] James Carville: You bet. Great. So, 

[00:46:19] Al Hunt: Hey, thank you for subscribing. And please tell your friends, uh, that the region Cajun and Albert Hunt are talking politics and a whole lot more each week.

[00:46:29] We'd love to welcome all of you, new listeners, and we appreciate all those who have been with us since the beginning. We'll talk to you again next week. Be safe.