Senator Jeff Flake Denounces Trumpism and Jerry Seib on How Reagan Led to Trump
Senator Jeff Flake separates Conservatism from Trumpism seeking to reclaim the soul of the Republican Party while Wall Street Journal Executive Washington Editor Gerald F Seib examines Reagan as the precursor to Trump in his new book 'We Should Have Seen It Coming: FROM REAGAN TO TRUMP–A FRONT-ROW SEAT TO A POLITICAL REVOLUTION.'
Meanwhile, James Carville pursues discussion with both guests on the concept that the base of the Republican party is preoccupied by racial resentment laying the foundation for Donald Trump to capitalize on this by speaking directly to the issue where others would not, and he was, in turn, embraced by Republican voters.
Show Notes:
00:10 - Nice White Parents live read
01:05 - Senator Jeff Flake interview begins
05:30 - Trumpism has taken over the party by fear and force
08:45 - James asks if the Republican Party is motivated by racial resentment
13:55 - Arizona politics post-McCain
17:20 - Max Sherzer fans all around
24:15 - All Republican office holders have become enablers
27:40 - Reagan wasn't perfect
28:30 - Race is the great unresolved issue in American life
32:00 - Hypocrite Newt Gingrich deserves our continued disrespect
37:45 - James and Al discus the powder keg in Kenosha
39:14 - RNC Recap
Transcript:
Al Hunt: [00:00:00] In the podcast. Nice white parents, reporter Hannah Joffey wall. You may know her from this American life started looking into this one school in her neighborhood. After her kids became school age in New York city, Hannah examines his public middle school traditionally filled with black and Brown students.
After a number of white families arrived. And then not satisfied. She fully understood what she was seeing. She went all the way back to the family of the school in the 1960s. And then up to the present day. Again, eventually Hunter realized she could put a name to what was getting in the way of making the school better.
All these years, white parents. Nice white parents is a fascinating, listen. That's deeply relevant today. It's made by serial productions, a New York times company. Same people who made the hit podcast, serial and S town, all episodes are now available. Wherever you do get your podcasts.
Hello, and welcome to 2020 politics war room with James Carville and Omaha. We are proud partners with the sign Institute in American university in Washington. We hope to get back there soon. Uh, we have, uh, another great show, uh, this week, the middle of the Republicans convention. Uh, but first I want to thank all of you who listened right as email or tweet us.
We love that. You're telling your friends about the show and please subscribe, rate, and review the show. On Apple podcast. Jeff flake was a much admired Arizona Congressman and United States Senator the former executive director of the Goldwater Institute that's as in Barry, the is a genuine political conservative, but he made a big mistake.
He preached and practice civility. And bowed out of office elective office in 2018. He's now joined a chorus of former Republican officeholders governors, senators, house members, former cabinet members and military leaders, Republicans for biotin. Senator, uh, you and share are out there enjoying the clean air of the West, whether it's Arizona or Utah, but I thank you for joining us.
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:02:09] Thanks for having me on Al. Good to be with you, James as well.
Al Hunt: [00:02:14] Uh, Joe Biden. He's certainly not a socialist. That's a totally bum rap, but on taxes, spending healthcare he's well to the left of Jeff flake.
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:02:24] Well, I, I think that, uh, for one, I think he will. Create and establish the civic space we're in Republicans and Democrats could start, yeah.
Arguing about higher taxes or more regulation. And actually we have a real debate right now. You can't have those debates. It's, it's a, it's basically a view, the support or to the president and his policies and his behavior and his conduct, or you don't. And that's a, that's not a healthy situation to be in.
So, yeah, I'll, I'll have disagreements with Joe Biden, but, uh, but I think that we'll be able to have the debate and that's good.
Al Hunt: [00:03:02] You believe that Donald Trump really isn't a conservative elaborate?
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:03:07] Well, there are several principles that have really kind of defined in Nevada animated, the Republican party for decades, police believe in limited government.
Uh, The support for free trade, um, belief, strong American leadership around the globe that that makes America safer and the world better. And if you just look at those three kind of characteristics, I mean, we were running trillion dollar deficits before the Corona virus hit us. Uh, we moved, uh, away from free trade and toward protectionism and, uh, the president has attacked, uh, These institutions that we established, uh, you know, 75 years ago, uh, NATO, uh, world trade organization, you know, later on.
And, and those things that have kept the peace in a bled to great prosperity, um, for, you know, more than half a century and a conservative wants to conserve and preserve institutions that work. And the president has gone against. Uh, institutions, uh, here at home, uh, rule of law, uh, separation of powers, uh, free press.
Those are, those are institutions that we ought to preserve as a conservative and he hasn't. And then, uh, most of all, um, Republican conservatives, if nothing else have had a healthy mistrust of concentrated power, uh, particularly in the executive. And yet here we have a president that has exercised that and a Republican Congress that has been quite supine.
And when, when it comes to that and just let the president run and that, uh, that's not conservative at all.
Al Hunt: [00:05:04] Well, that brings up, you know, the list of former officials, including you is quite impressive. Uh, but among who are opposing Trump and splinting. Bye bye. But among current Republican office holders, about the only one ever stood up to him as Mitt Romney, is this because they've been convinced it's now out of conviction or is it,
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:05:23] um, obviously, uh, they, they look at where I am and, uh, I, I would have liked frankly, to have done a second term in the Senate.
Um, I've been in the house for 12 years before, and I wasn't going to be a lifer, but, uh, another term I would have liked. But it would have required that I, that I change many of my policy positions and then condone the president's behavior because, uh, with one tweet or one phone call, uh, he can generate a primary in just about any state that will take any Republican office holder out.
And that's known. And, uh, and I know some of mine, it's not just a Mitt Romney, some have stood on, on some other issues. Uh I've you know, wished that Mora would stand up. If more, if more of my colleagues would at the same time, the president would, wouldn't be able to get away with what he gets away with.
But, uh, but it's fair. It's certainly
Al Hunt: [00:06:25] fair.
James Carville: [00:06:27] Tend to whether you're conservative or liberal or whatever it is, the job of president of the States, particularly as lates to foreign policy and being commander in chief requires some amount of temperament and certain amount of judiciousness and wisdom is evident to me and forgetting.
Oh, to extent, Trump is not even close to that standard. And now, without naming names, that's 53 people
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:06:54] in the
James Carville: [00:06:54] Republican Senate caucus. How many of them you think shared a view that he's temperamentally and emotionally ill ill suited for the job?
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:07:04] Oh, I don't know how you rank that on a scale or, you know, but everybody is everybody.
Every, uh, Republican Senator has winced. At, uh, some of his statements or positions, um, some, uh, agree with more of them than not obviously. So it's, it's, uh, there, there are some who are, who are very decent dinner, completely quiet about it. Uh, some who are cheering and in some of these areas and have trouble with others, but, but to a person though, I can say that, that my former colleagues, um, Had greater aspirations when going to the Senate, you know, then defending the president, uh, you know, his latest tweets or whatever else.
So most of them want to legislate and want to have these debates at least. And. And have the Senate be the Senate again, and it really hasn't been for awhile. So
James Carville: [00:08:03] it's two views. The first year is kind of the Republican party. Is it traditional, as you say, limited government, low taxes, uh, tradition, socially traditionalist, slightly nationalistic party embodied by Mitt Romney and all of a sudden.
Along comes Donald Trump and he sees is this
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:08:27] here to
Al Hunt: [00:08:28] four
James Carville: [00:08:30] ideologically consistent
Al Hunt: [00:08:32] pro-American party.
James Carville: [00:08:34] And that's one view. The other view is, is that the Republican party has always been at its core a lot about racial resentment. And Trump just came in and spoke directly to that issue when others would not.
And he, he was embraced across America by Republican voters. It, which one do you use is closer to yours?
Al Hunt: [00:08:58] Hmm.
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:09:00] And the former, the former, I refuse to believe that, uh, that, that typifies a broad swath of Republican voters. And I do think that, uh, If the president is defeated, um, I do hope the best shot, obviously that we have of returning to a, a, you know, a viable political movement, uh, is if enough Republican say, yeah, we went down a bad detour, um, and, uh, let's get back to.
You know, the principles that have defined an animated, the party for, for awhile that we've had success with. So I, yeah, I, I, I subscribed to the former.
James Carville: [00:09:44] I would just point out and being courteous to polling supports the lab view. I'll leave it at that.
Talk about Arizona politics, just a little bit. Is there, there has to be some kind of feeling Republican strategists in Arizona. The immediate future is not nearly as bright as the immediate past. Is there anybody that anybody in the Arizona Republican party they got so sort of sounding the alarm here that this thing is in danger of going off the cliff, the wrong way.
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:10:19] Uh, nobody in a, in a position of power dominance in the party. Here's, here's the, here's the quandary that we're in. Um, you know, when, when, uh, John McCain was, uh, in the Senate, but I was in the Senate when John Kyle was in the Senate, there was always an effort to, uh, you know, recruit, uh, precinct committee, committee, men, and others at the local level.
Who had a more inclusive view of what a Republican can be into it. Those who could appeal the non Trumpian view. I just put it that way. Yeah. And now without a John McCain there, there's, there's just not that grassroots level. And I can tell you, it is increasingly difficult to convince your neighbors and your friends who are Republican.
To attend district meetings, precinct, you know, maybe to put themselves on a, you know, a local ballot, um, when they go to those meetings, when all they're hearing is, uh, talk on immigration or, uh, the latest conspiracy theory or whatever else was just, it doesn't appeal to them. So you have that. And then, and then in the business community to, uh, they.
You know, when the Republican party is all about, you know, SB 10, 70, or restrictive immigration measures, business community doesn't want to be a part of that and shies away from the party. And then, so in terms of money for the party to do, uh, party building exercises, get out the vote efforts, it's not there.
And so in turn, the party has to hi on the national Republican party and that. Just means that they are completely beholden to the president and his, his view on Republican politics and it, and then it becomes a, a cycle that we just can't break out of. And right now the Repub, the state Republican party is just completely in the grip of, uh, of Trumpism, uh, that the chair of the state party is Kelly Ward, who.
Who is a very, very much a, a Trump acolyte. Um, and so there's just no room right now in the party apparatus for any dissenting voices or anybody to say, Hey, you know, we were kind of in a demographic col-de-sac here that we're just not going to get out of. And so I, that, that that's, what's not being heard right now.
Al Hunt: [00:12:53] Well, I, you know, I'll just say for myself, Kelly, Ward's more of a hater perhaps than John. Then Donald Trump, when John McCain came down with cancer, she basically, he said, get out of the way so I can get to the Senate. I it's, it's just, she's a physician that's just despicable. But Martha McSally, who was sort of a moderate conservative house member when she lost in 2018 Senator, uh, for your seat, she said that she was a Donald Trump, Republican, and a John McCain, Republican that's impossible.
That's an impossible act. Uh, and she lost. And I guess it looks like that she's going to lose pretty badly to Mark Kelly this time.
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:13:30] She has a very uphill battle and the difficulty that, uh, that she is in virtually any Republican statewide and Arizona is to win a Republican primary. You have to be with the precedent and, uh, that almost precludes you from winning a general, uh, statewide.
And it used to be. And now before you had Republican officials who would keep their distance, at least from the president, when the president would come to Arizona, you know, they would say, well, I just happened to be in Yuma. All right. I'm, you know, I'm somewhere out of town, I'm up North. And because they didn't want to stand on the campaign stage with the president when he ridiculed John McCain or.
Or, uh, you know, belittled, uh, other officials, but now it's, and that's, what's been more painful than anything. We always knew where John Donald Trump was going to come from and who he would be, but at least you had some Republicans willing to create some kind of distance and that's been done away with.
And, uh, and I think that's the difficulty that Martha McSally and others have is, uh, You know, she felt that she had to be where she was going to be, uh, to win the primary, um, and, uh, or to flip now and create some distance with the president would seem insincere. So she's, she's in a tough position, really tough position.
Al Hunt: [00:15:08] You earlier expressed your hope as to what a post-Trump party might look like. Let me give you a different view, which is the Trump when he loses. And I think he will. Uh, he won't go away gracefully. Uh, he was not going to be, he doesn't have Nixon's, uh, uh, charm, uh, and he will say it was rigged and all that.
And I think Trumpism will live and may still dominate the party. Tell me why I'm wrong. Um,
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:15:36] you may not be, uh, hi, hope you are. I just know that the best shot we have. Um, of, of returning to some kind of sane or version I think of republicanism is conservatism is if, uh, is if Trump loses badly. And I think if he loses very narrowly, it'll be more difficult for, uh, those who are big fans of the president to, to say, Hey, you know, he lost fair and square.
They'll, they'll find a reason to say it was rigged somehow, but if he loses convincingly, Then we may have, uh, have enough people that in the parties who say, all right, let's, let's go ahead. Different direction. And James, you, you look at this stuff all the time and you were sounding the alarm, you know, early this year, um, on the democratic side to nominate somebody like Joe Buck rather than one of the others.
But I think, I genuinely think that if the president wins a second term, Um, you know, there's some people who think Texas will flip this time. I don't, but four years, four more years of a Trump administration. If he continues with the type of politics and behavior and conduct, I think Texas could be blue, um, you know, four years from now, then for a Republican nationally, uh, to put together some kind of coalition to win.
I just don't see it. And so, and there, there've got to be enough Republicans that see that, um, in the end
Al Hunt: [00:17:12] Senator, I I'm going to close on a different note. A lot of our listeners may not know that one of your friends, good friends is none other than max Scherzer. The great national pitcher who James and I Revere.
You used to even sit with his wife at NATS games. Uh, his max is going as strong as ever.
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:17:34] He is, he has, it's been so great to see a, well obviously last year to watch the nationals, uh, you know, take the whole thing was, uh, was incredible. Yeah. It, he, I, I tell ya what a competitor he is, and he worked so hard in the off season and, uh, Um, I think it's showing I though the best game I've ever seen, uh, baseball of any type was what he threw 20 strikeouts.
And, uh, and I went, I sat with John McCain, uh, in that, uh, in that game he had. That I had mixtures. There's a wife, Erica, and watched him throw 20 strikeouts. And, uh, it was the most incredible game I've ever seen. So I love baseball,
Al Hunt: [00:18:22] the names I think on that. We all agree. We all agree.
James Carville: [00:18:25] You see max or just tell him is his two biggest fans.
I just love it. I like it when he gives. I love to watch him pitch after somebody has hit him hard. I would not want to come by, you know, put a screaming double to right center. Cause it's not going to handle it all for the guy coming up next.
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:18:44] Oh, well what was funded to, uh, to sit with Erica? Who knows that was exactly what he's thinking, you know?
When somebody knocks a home, run off and remember whatever, and she'll say, Oh, he's going to do this, or he's going to do that. But sure enough, you know, they're creatures of habit out there on the mound. And, uh, anyway, it was fun to watch
Al Hunt: [00:19:05] wash should have them extras there's habits, uh, Jeff flake. Uh, it's so good to be with you today.
Please give Cheryl our best stay safe, and I hope we'll see you in person
James Carville: [00:19:15] one of these days.
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:19:17] Yes, sir.
James Carville: [00:19:18] Thank you so much. Speaking circuit again.
Al Hunt: [00:19:35] Hey James, I've been reporting in this town for more than a half century. God, that makes me old. Doesn't it. And I have worked with scores of the very best journalists. In America. I mean, literally the very best, none better than Jerry's side. He was a great reporter covering campaigns, white house and diplomacy, foreign correspondent, the best Bureau, chief distinguished columns.
Uh, yeah, he is. He also is in our club, James. He married above himself. Barbara shavings is every bit as good a journalist, uh, as he is. And so it's great to have, whether it's the pride and joy of Hays, Kansas and the Kansas Jayhawks Jerry side, who's the author of a really interesting new book that comes out today from Reagan to Trump.
We should have seen it coming. Jerry Reagan had right-wing views sometimes shallow, sometimes not, but he in general, radiated optimism, America competing in the world of value of. Immigrants, uh, and, uh, global, uh, engagement and also after six o'clock, uh, would have drinks with political adversaries, like tip O'Neill that's.
We can get into the policies in a minute, but that's such a striking contrast with Trump who basically radiates darkness. Uh, Anti immigrants and hates political opponents. How do we get here?
Jerry Seib: [00:21:02] Well, that's the, that was the reason I wrote the book. I was trying to figure out an answer to that question, you know?
Uh, but before we go on, you forgot to mention out, but I also share with you and James obsession about the Washington nationals. So there's so much, uh, connective tissue here.
Al Hunt: [00:21:16] Um, by the way, just did you just hear our conversation with Jeff Blake
Jerry Seib: [00:21:19] who was talking to him? That's what had me
Al Hunt: [00:21:21] talking about max Scherzer, right,
Jerry Seib: [00:21:22] right.
From Missouri Al by the way. But I forgive him that, um, so no, so the answer is how did we get here? And, you know, the, uh, the title of the book kind of, um, gives away the answer to that question that I came up with, which was, we all should have seen it coming that this idea that I think everybody embraced in 2016, that Donald Trump was.
Donald Trump was some bolt out of the blue is not really right. So the seeds of Trumpism were planted years ago. Um, probably first with Pat Buchanan within the Republican party, you know, our friend bill McInturff a Republican pollster said in 2016 that Donald Trump has just basically Pat Buchanan with his own airplane.
And then you had a series of, um, uh, further developments in the Republican party. So they're, you know, Sarah pale and Mike Huckabee. Even Ross Perot, the tea party that told you there was this thing developing at the grassroots. Um, that was basically not Reagan conservatism, but Trump, Trump, um, populism and nationalism, and that slowly took over the party.
And I think Donald kind of walk through an open door in 2016 and to go to the, your question, but why is the character of the leader so different? I mean, Ronald Reagan came to Washington, right? I think, and I was brand new here in those days when he arrived. Yeah. To convert Washington into co-opt it. And to make it part of his movement, Donald Trump showed up with this kind of populist nationalist view of Washington that said I'm going to attack Washington.
And he's pretty much done that for four years.
Al Hunt: [00:22:49] You know, Jerry, I think FDR and the new deal survived for decades and decades, obviously. Democratic politicians adapted, adjusted. There were different policies, but even today, Democrats basically Revere FDR and the new deal. It sets a certain touchstone for Democrats.
I think Donald Trump has so taken over the Republican party that Reagan almost seems irrelevant.
Jerry Seib: [00:23:13] Yeah, I, you know, I wrote a piece, I adapted some of the, for excerpts in the journal on Saturday. And I said in the excerpts, something, I feel stronger now than I did when I finished the book of some months ago that you can't put Trump isn't back in the day bottle.
It doesn't mean there can't be a. Uh, reverting back to some kind of Reagan conservatism, but it will be adapted to populism and nationalism. And there are a lot of smart, young conservatives who are sitting around Washington and elsewhere in the country trying to figure out how to do it, but I don't think it ends up.
Donald Trump loses on November 3rd. First of all, as, as you noted earlier, he's not going to go away. And second, there is now this notion that you can't go back to Reagan style conservatism, you know, free trade, uh, open immigration, or at least positive use of immigration, a robust American role around the world, that those things are kind of gone and you have to adapt, uh, the conservative message to an era of populism and nationalism on the right.
Well,
Al Hunt: [00:24:10] Jerry, we asked you to flake this, but let me throw it to you to of all the Republicans office holders, not, not the former office holders, but current office holders with the notable exception of Mitt Romney, they all have become enablers. And now the rabbit Portman's in the Lamar Alexanders. Should know better.
Are they just cowards? Well,
Jerry Seib: [00:24:32] I think there, I tried it in the book to put Republicans in categories in there that never Trumpers. And then there's, there are the converts, and then there are this, there's this third group that I refer to as the stragglers and, you know, people like Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz, and even Rob Portman fit into that.
Category, which is they're not buying into Trump isn't, but they're not willing to break with the president and their party. So figure out ways to stay in the middle. But as your question suggests out, that's a, that's a tough spot to be in there. There's not a lot of firm ground in the middle between the never Trumpers.
Yeah. And the love Trumpers in the Republican party. Um, and they're just, I, my sense is they're just trying to survive in that narrow middle ground. That's still there.
James Carville: [00:25:12] Well, to talk about the modern Republican party and not talk about race is the guy said it, the Dutch account. It's like having a firefighting convention and not talking about water.
And I understand the score furcation or Reagan. I just would point out that he called black males, young strapping bucks. I would further point out that he opened his campaign in the Shelby County, Mississippi and talked about state's rights. Right. I don't have no idea. Yeah. Who I'm sure that he was not a racist, but he was comfortable with them and comfortable with the help.
And you can project bone. And no, we can talk about the pristine origins of free trade and 4th of July parade and a strong military and a low marginal tax. I'm just not buying it. I think, I think that that is the dominant strain of modern conservatism.
Jerry Seib: [00:26:10] Well, look, I don't think Reagan was a racist, but he was a product of a racist era for sure.
Uh, and he did go to Mississippi to open his campaign. He also went by the way, uh, when he started his general election campaign in 1980, the statue of Liberty and delivered a speech that was. Basically embraced immigrants from abroad. And so that was really more than 1980 version of Ronald Reagan. I think that the racial divides, that's a place where Republicans revert to.
Um, and they're doing it again right now. And I think that's, there's no, there's no doubt about that. It's complicated when you. Talk about Reagan personally, because as you say, James, I don't think he was a racist, but you have to separate that from the Republican party. And I, you know, a better example is probably Lee Atwater and George H w Bush, um, in 1988, you know, it was the year of the Willie Horton ad.
And that was not George H w Bush. Uh, but he went along and that's where, uh, that, again, you're talking about seeds of the current Republican party. There's some of those, uh, sewn in there as well.
James Carville: [00:27:13] Roger Ailes was bushes TV guys. You know, everybody knows exactly who Roger Ailes was in 1981. Liat Vata gave an interview.
And so they used to be able to say to him, blah, blah, blah. Now you just say forced busing and lower taxation and everything. And maybe it's because I'm from the South, but I think racial resentment is the driving force. And again, I don't want to say that I'm sure Reagan was a nice guy, you know, but he, he didn't, he didn't have much discomfort.
Being around these people and he didn't have much discomfort with, you know, giving these tax breaks to the segregated schools. I just remained. Convinced that racial resentment is the big drive of modern Republican party.
Jerry Seib: [00:28:01] You know, James people like you, and frankly, president Clinton back in the day when we had a president who actually talked to people like me of regularly, um, you know, sort of educated, a lot of us that, you know, race is the great.
Unresolved issue in American life, not just political life, but American life in general. And you know, I think a lot of people who grew up like I did, you know, I mean, I'm the white boy from the Midwest. Um, uh, likes to imagine that while we had a civil rights movement, we had voting rights and we had, um, we had, uh, the, the.
Yeah, effort to use affirmative action to address historic inequities. Um, and then we elected an African American, a black president. So we've, we're done here. We solved this. We are not a segregated racist country anymore. And I think the, um, the stunning reality of. Uh, 2020 is that we've all people like me have been reminded again, that it's not that simple.
And you know, that's certainly true in the re in Republican party politics. Um, and you know, we'll see how this plays out over the next, um, you know, 70 days, but it could be very ugly by November
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:29:07] 3rd.
Al Hunt: [00:29:10] You know, one transitional figure that you mentioned, you mentioned Pat Buchanan. I would say another, which you have a whole chapter on.
Very good chapter was Newt Gingrich now. Uh, I think nuking rich, um, uh, I'll say what I really think is one of the great frauds in the history of American politics, but he's a very smart Shrew, clever fraud. When I first met him, I had lunch with him in 1974, Jerry, and he told me he was a Linwood Holton, Republican, a Rockefeller Republican get rid of this Reagan stuff.
We're uh, we're a pro-environment pro civil rights. When he came to Congress, finally, four years later, he caught a saw where the writing was and he, I give him, I think he was the, he was the, the, the, the guerrilla warrior who led Republicans to victory in 1994, and then did nothing to great didn't create any kind of a legacy except one of even meaner hate than existed before.
And that also is part of what Trump has picked up.
Jerry Seib: [00:30:07] Yeah. You know, and in that chapter, Al I quote somebody, we all know, well, Rahm Emanuel, who, you know, worked with and against Newt Gingrich in various ways over the years, who said, you know, the real end of the Reagan era of the Republican party in my mind didn't occur when Donald Trump.
Came to power, but it happened when Newt Gingrich became the face of the party that that's, when you move from Reagan's sort of sunny optimism to kind of a much meaning you're a kind of a more attack mode, uh, version of conservatism. Uh, it's also true as you suggest. I think what I decided in retrospect is that the high point of the Reagan conservative movie, actually, it was 1994.
That was the highway Mark. And that was Gingrich. But then, you know, within. Three years. It was certainly within four years by nine. Yeah. Yay. Um, had it all kind of been squandered and, uh, bill Clinton, it was still an office in Newt. Gingrich was back home in Georgia, uh, much to his amazement. I think that, uh, so it, it went.
Away pretty fast, but I do think 1994, um, was a high point for the, for the Reagan conservative movement, but then it became something different from the Reagan conservative. Well,
Al Hunt: [00:31:17] I agree, electorally. It certainly wasn't Gingrich an electoral strategy. He had no governance, there's no Gingrich legacy.
There's no legislative legacy. Uh, the, the, you know, the, the, the plan for America, uh, was, you know, great talking points, recycle as you point out a lot of recycled Reagan stuff. Didn't create any new legislation. Uh, and he ended up, uh, defending birtherism. This is, and he went inside. He called Chris Christie's office when he was about to appoint a Muslim governor.
Judge rather said, you can't do that because all those Muslims believe in Sharia law. That is where Newt Gingrich's ended up today. But, uh,
Jerry Seib: [00:31:58] I'll interrupt here with a little bit because you and I, and James all know Lou cannon, uh, I've revered Lou cannon. Um, he was on the very first, uh, Reagan reporting trip by everyone knew Al told me at the time, uh, just hang out with Lou and do what he does and you'll be fine.
He, I went back and looked at loos. Regan biographies as I was doing this. And he has a passage in one of those books in which he says everything that was in Newt Gingrich's contract with America, which was 10 items, was in a Reagan, um, state of the union address a few, 10 years earlier. And so that's kind of, that's kind of what happened there, I think.
Um, and. You know, I, I think the, um, the reality is that, um, Gingrich was too much for, even for his own party that as he will admit today, I wore everybody out and I wore everybody down and I wasn't a Regan and that's the re the referee many Reagan's, you know,
Al Hunt: [00:32:52] he admits that, but he won't admit to his mean-spirited bigotry and the hate and it's apocryphal.
He was, he presided over the house while they voted it while they were impeaching. Bill Clinton. For lying about sex while he was, if you'll pardon the expression, betting a house staffer. Uh, I mean, he just he's the most amoral man. Yeah.
Jerry Seib: [00:33:14] Well also note here, this is a, uh, this is a nod to James for sure that when you go back and relook at that period, one of the things that strikes you is the way bill Clinton and people like James completely outmaneuvered.
Gingrich, they took the middle ground away from him completely between 1994 and 1996. And certainly by 1998. Um, and he was basically co-opted and outmaneuvered and, um, I don't think he realized what was happening then. I didn't realize what was happening then, but if you look at it through the rear view mirror, man, that was a master, uh, era of master politics from bill Clinton.
James Carville: [00:33:51] Let me go. I think that you can generalize say to Candace Republican party is not driven by racism because it's not that many racial minorities that lives there, but you know, to Alf Landon and Nancy Carlson bomber, Bob DOE, and it looks like they might be fractured a little, there's a democratic governance because they reacted against.
You know, Brownback's idiotic experiment and weirdly enough Kobeck loses the primary, but I'm hearing that race is more competitive than people think. I wonder if it's like is Johnson County Republicans or something that is starting to break off and Kansas is not, it's not going to be a blue state, but it's going to just take something more than just having an R after your name and screaming at a microphone.
Jerry Seib: [00:34:40] I think that that's true. Brownback damaged the party. Um, And Kobach Kris Kobach, you know, the former secretary of state who lost that governor's race damages a lot more. And you have a deep schism in the Republican party in Kansas city, the Johnson County Republicans referred to Johnson County being the suburban area around Kansas city, uh, has gone from moderate Republican to moderate Democrat, uh, pretty heavily.
Um, and you now have in Kansas, what you sort of have in Missouri next door, which is, um, the, sort of the rural big, uh, The Heartland of the state is red, red, red, red, red, and Trumpy, very Trumpy. And, uh, around the edges, you have a lot of people who are not there. And so, uh, I, I don't think, I think Roger Marshall, who's the relatively more moderate Republican who was nominated for that Senate seat.
He'd beat Kobach in the primary. I think he's going to win, but it's going to be a close race in Kansas has a lot. Closer to picking to electing somebody, a Democrat to the Senate than it has been in. Oh, I don't know, 80, 90 years. It's a, it's a change party in Kansas and, um,
James Carville: [00:35:46] bring the Johnson of whatever, you know, I guess suburban sheds, but I mean, they're, they're breaking.
They're probably, you can be pretty tough to want to show integration candidates
Al Hunt: [00:35:56] did it in 1936.
James Carville: [00:35:59] On the governance ration. We have Tom docking and death it's
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:36:02] it used to be
James Carville: [00:36:05] pretty good. Kansas Democrats
Al Hunt: [00:36:07] here,
Jerry Seib: [00:36:08] not many, you know, I had this. I talked about bill from time to time, because I'm from Kansas, he's from Kansas.
And he called me out of blue couple of weeks ago because he, I guess he gets bored and wants to do political gossip with somebody. So, and I, yeah, we were talking about the Senate race and Bob doll was one 97. Now he knew exactly. He knew exactly. When the last Republican was elected to Kansas, he knew the guy's name.
And he knew the name of the company that he had worked for before he got into politics. I mean, this is an amazing person and that's just a Kansas aside, but you guys both appreciate it. I know.
Al Hunt: [00:36:43] Oh, Jerry. I had a conversation with him last week. It was very, it was not as much Kansas century, but he analyzed the current presidential race and he did it really.
He was, he was brilliant. We can't thank you enough for your time. And I want to tell everyone out there, Gerald side, it's called. We should've seen it coming by random house, order it, order it today. Thank you, Jerry.
James Carville: [00:37:10] I was good talking.
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:37:10] Yes.
James Carville: [00:37:12] Yeah.
Al Hunt: [00:37:13] Okay. James, you got a good
James Carville: [00:37:15] show. I mean, yeah. I think the combination of Senator flake and SOC, but I just got to go back and I remained. Fixed that by viewed at racism was the dominant driving factor behind Trump is unshaken. And it's unshaken that
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:37:32] a lot. Yeah.
James Carville: [00:37:33] What happened was is even if people weren't, they were certainly tolerant of it.
And when you let something like that grow, and I got a dull thing, I'm worried sick about these the after, you know, when he did during the day we have these protests and that thing in Wisconsin, it's about as bad as anything it's just sickening. And the same thing with the jars heart, but
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:37:54] the
James Carville: [00:37:56] big strength stuff you see in it, particularly at night, and I'm told us is like being an organizers is not spontaneous a local people at all.
This was troubling. And I hope that that the governor can put an end to this, you know, and these people can go and protest and, you know, reform it in a way that's meaningful.
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:38:17] Well, I
Al Hunt: [00:38:17] think you're absolutely right. As I understand it. Listening to people and watching people and meeting people out there.
There are, there are legitimate, peaceful, largely peaceful protest from locals during the day. And then at night, some of the others, the outsiders come in and that's when it turns bad. And, uh, I have really been very critical of BARR and this administration for pretending these are all a bunch of, uh, you know, left, wing, crazy radical rioters.
Cause they haven't been in the main, but if there are out there outsiders you're right, the governor ought to stop it. That's what you have a national guard for and stop him from coming in.
James Carville: [00:38:54] They got to stop shooting people, man, it just was, this is just not
Senator Jeff Flake: [00:38:57] right.
Jerry Seib: [00:38:58] I agree,
Al Hunt: [00:38:58] James, before we go, just one quick comment about Charlotte.
Uh, I mean there's a lot of things. One could say, but I want to focus for 40 seconds on one speech and Bondi Pam Bondi, the former attorney general of Florida did a six minute riff on how corrupt Joe Biden and his family were. As you know, nepotism, it's unbelievable. It's outrageous
Jerry Seib: [00:39:21] while defending
Al Hunt: [00:39:22] Donald Trump, whatever small transgressions or Biden and others may have committed.
And I think he did it pales, compare it compared to the Trump family who basically think this is a licensed dilute, but Pam Bondi, I would remember. I know our listeners was, the attorney was running for attorney general in Florida when she took an elicit campaign contribution from Donald Trump. And then dropped a lawsuit, brought against Trump university.
Uh, Pam Bondi, uh, talking, uh, about, uh, corruption, uh, is like the Boston strangler railing against street crime. I mean, it really was outrageous.
James Carville: [00:40:02] I did, but then you can't be dead. Kimberly Gill falls below fall. I mean, that's one of the Epic moment. I think what's going to happen. I think cute is gonna make an unannounced appearance tonight.
Yeah, shady. And you can't really see a space and Q we'll address the convention to a rape scene, just rapturous, you know, 23 minutes.
Jerry Seib: [00:40:32] Oh, they'll go wild. If they get cute.
Al Hunt: [00:40:34] Well, let me just say one thing. They, their audience was down from the first, at the democratic convention the first time, but much more important.
Their audience was overwhelmingly Fox news. And I watched Fox news for two hours both nights, except when my wife is doing the PBS interview, uh, which was a welcome despite, but, uh, they are the true believers that are watching. Uh, they're being fed red meat. They're not persuadable voters, uh, and that's, and that's who they're reaching this week.
So, uh, whatever success they may or may not be, I haven't, I don't think it's translating into many boats. All right. Well, listen. It was a great show, a perfect, and we hope to be back with you again on Friday after the Republican convention, with the guru of all gurus, the great Charlotte cook talking about the 20, 20 election as we head into labor day and the fall, James, stay safe out there in the Shenandoah.
And thanks you all for listening to 2020 politics war room. Follow the show on Twitter at politics or rum and email us at politics for romance, email that's politics war room at Gmail. Thanks for subscribing. Please rate the show hopefully with a five star review. We'll be back on Friday. As we March towards November, please be safe out there.